Off the shelf oil with highest ZDDP ?

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Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
Excessive ZDDP will prematurely wear your engine.

Motorcycle oils like M1 V-Twin have a lot of zinc (1750 ppm) and I've never heard of them causing problems. Same with my regular Penrite brew of HPR-30 at 1570 ppm zinc, this is pretty much double the regular ILSAC zinc limits.

I think you would need silly high amounts to cause any ZDDP related problem.

Having said that, most Euro 0W-40 oils like M1 or Edge have about 1000 to 1100 ppm zinc, which should be plenty for most applications. For comparison M1 AFE has "only" 750 ppm zinc.
 
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
Excessive ZDDP will prematurely wear your engine.

Motorcycle oils like M1 V-Twin have a lot of zinc (1750 ppm) and I've never heard of them causing problems. Same with my regular Penrite brew of HPR-30 at 1570 ppm zinc, this is pretty much double the regular ILSAC zinc limits.

I think you would need silly high amounts to cause any ZDDP related problem.

Having said that, most Euro 0W-40 oils like M1 or Edge have about 1000 to 1100 ppm zinc, which should be plenty for most applications. For comparison M1 AFE has "only" 750 ppm zinc.

Motor oil developers talk about a proper balance of additives. Simply upping one additive is going to affect how another additive responds. I'm sure that quite a few of the high ZDDP motor oils are formulated for that, with other antiwear/antifriction/detergent/anticorrosion additives present to adequately operate. Simply tossing in some random aftermarket additive that ups the ZDDP content might mess with the balance and lead to increased wear.
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
Excessive ZDDP will prematurely wear your engine.

Motorcycle oils like M1 V-Twin have a lot of zinc (1750 ppm) and I've never heard of them causing problems. Same with my regular Penrite brew of HPR-30 at 1570 ppm zinc, this is pretty much double the regular ILSAC zinc limits.

I think you would need silly high amounts to cause any ZDDP related problem.

Having said that, most Euro 0W-40 oils like M1 or Edge have about 1000 to 1100 ppm zinc, which should be plenty for most applications. For comparison M1 AFE has "only" 750 ppm zinc.

Motor oil developers talk about a proper balance of additives. Simply upping one additive is going to affect how another additive responds. I'm sure that quite a few of the high ZDDP motor oils are formulated for that, with other antiwear/antifriction/detergent/anticorrosion additives present to adequately operate. Simply tossing in some random aftermarket additive that ups the ZDDP content might mess with the balance and lead to increased wear.


Yeah I hear what you are saying, and I would never add an extra ingredient to an oil, instead I would select a fully formulated product that better matches my requirements.

However apart from the general argument of don't mess with a formulated product, I can't see the mechanism by which a bit of extra ZDDP would cause damage to the engine (not talking about the exhaust system here). Infact I recall one formulator here saying that ZDDP is one of the few things that can be added to oil (in reasonable amounts) such that a bit extra often helps rather than hurts. Or words roughly to that effect.

ZDDP acts as both an anti-wear agent to protect the metal and as an anti-oxidant agent to protect the oil. It's pretty special how it protects both the engine and the oil simultaneously.
 
Originally Posted By: FlyPenFly
Extra ZDDP can hurt because it will outcompete other additives in clinging to the friction surfaces.


That's a little broad for me, without being rude, specifically what other adds and what is the mechanism of damage?

I have heard that high zinc race oils may have less detergents or dispersants in them, but this is so they don't compete with the zinc to allow it increased access to the metal surface for increased wear protection. It's the other way around. This is also why some race oils are not suitable for long term road use, as the low d & d package isn't suitable to fight long term acid or soot buildup, so you change these race oils early.

But again, the issue is to give the ZDDP full access to the metal surface, so other stuff is removed to get out of it's way. I've never heard the reverse issue where the zinc is getting in the way of other stuff. Not to any detrimental or damaging degree.

Sure, maybe AW and FM compete to some degree, But I have used FM free oils many times, with the loose claims they protect more (ie zinc wins again) at the small cost of some fuel economy. This is a classic Penrite performance oil, high zinc and friction modifier free. But the engine isn't hurt by this, again the focus is the opposite, let the anti-wear zinc win the battle for the metal surface.

I am happy to be corrected because if I have it wrong then I would like to know for my own education.
 
Here is a great thread about zinc (ZDDP) in oil, with many oil formulators giving their view. It's well worth a read.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4283934/1

It contains some of the comments I was alluding to before
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
If I could only have one additive in oil, it would be ZDDP. It may have been knocked off its pedestal because of concern over cats but in my mind, it's still THE additive which all other oil additives hang off. I don't think I've ever met a serious oil formulator who would actively choose to restrict the amount of ZDDP in PCMO. Seventy years worth of positive automotive reality with ZDDP should not be blithly dismissed.


Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
When I was playing around with ZDDPs, you would see a big difference between 800ppm and 1200ppm of ZDDP on tests that were in some way related to oil oxidation. Tests like the Sequence IIIF/IIIG which primarily looks at viscosity increase, the Sequence VG which looks at an oil's propensity to drop out sludge and the various Teost tests which measure the tendency to form deposits at high temperature all tend to improve the more ZDDP you have in your oil.

...

For what it's worth, my gut feel would be that ZDDP is to engine wear what Vitamin C is to human metabolism. Too little and you've got problems (wear or scurvy!). Too much, and your engine/body will absorb only what it needs to keep things healthy.
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: TheKracken
Mobile 1 TDT 5w40

Good for gas engines too, more ZDDP than the mobile 1 0w40

I have a ton of this stuff and plan to use it with 0w20 AFE mobile to reduce the amount of ZDDP for less risk of cats going bad.


Where do you buy Mobile 1? It's not on the shelves around here.


Tried WalMart ?

Mobil 1 15w-50 works very well in classics, it has 1300/1200 ppm.

If you want to use an additive, can shield is the best one I know of. They provide a formula for determining. How much to add to get to a specific zddp level

http://www.cam-shield.com

Z
 
Man, seems like ZDDP and moly are things of the past. I remember mobbing Big Lots to get bottles of Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment to get a shot of ZDDP into some cars that have long since gone away.
 
Originally Posted By: SR5
Here is a great thread about zinc (ZDDP) in oil, with many oil formulators giving their view. It's well worth a read.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4283934/1

It contains some of the comments I was alluding to before
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
If I could only have one additive in oil, it would be ZDDP. It may have been knocked off its pedestal because of concern over cats but in my mind, it's still THE additive which all other oil additives hang off. I don't think I've ever met a serious oil formulator who would actively choose to restrict the amount of ZDDP in PCMO. Seventy years worth of positive automotive reality with ZDDP should not be blithly dismissed.


Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
When I was playing around with ZDDPs, you would see a big difference between 800ppm and 1200ppm of ZDDP on tests that were in some way related to oil oxidation. Tests like the Sequence IIIF/IIIG which primarily looks at viscosity increase, the Sequence VG which looks at an oil's propensity to drop out sludge and the various Teost tests which measure the tendency to form deposits at high temperature all tend to improve the more ZDDP you have in your oil.

...

For what it's worth, my gut feel would be that ZDDP is to engine wear what Vitamin C is to human metabolism. Too little and you've got problems (wear or scurvy!). Too much, and your engine/body will absorb only what it needs to keep things healthy.




And recent research has shown ZDDP as an additive that is very effective in reducing the probability of LSPI. So don't count it out yet.
 
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