Recent Topics
Classic road brake pads
by buck91. 09/23/18 06:18 PM
Air up your vehicle's tires
by Papa Bear. 09/23/18 06:07 PM
A cool litttle Fall foliage site
by Papa Bear. 09/23/18 06:02 PM
Suggestion: "Likes"
by SnowDrifter. 09/23/18 05:36 PM
Condensation in headlights?
by irv. 09/23/18 05:06 PM
Nissan VQ V-6 Engines
by Al. 09/23/18 04:57 PM
List of dexos licensed oils?
by k1xv. 09/23/18 04:24 PM
High flow oil pump? Thinner oil?
by SnowDrifter. 09/23/18 04:06 PM
Is Tiger back?
by gman2304. 09/23/18 03:51 PM
Castrol Edge Pro OE LLIV FE 0W20 for VW508
by BrandonT. 09/23/18 03:33 PM
Value of 90's stereo equipment
by wrcsixeight. 09/23/18 03:28 PM
Wisdom of BITOG'ers wanted- 19 Avalon Hybrid oil
by scion_xb. 09/23/18 02:36 PM
w116 300sd Mercedes Diesel HPR fuel
by Gito. 09/23/18 02:14 PM
Power Stop Wheel Bearing/Hubs?
by oilpsi2high. 09/23/18 01:37 PM
Dump the 30k ATF in the 17 Kia?
by 3Aone. 09/23/18 01:31 PM
Miata Aisin 6 speed question
by 10ecfarmer. 09/23/18 12:36 PM
Shortest time you owned a car?
by Corollaman. 09/23/18 12:21 PM
Winter tires pinned for studs, but without studs
by Corollaman. 09/23/18 12:12 PM
03 Accord V6 "needs" iridium plugs?
by columnshift. 09/23/18 11:40 AM
Newest Members
The_Money_Light, DALTRON0659, skippermatt, HondaTech250, SandCruzer
66047 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
120 registered members (2010Civic, 10ecfarmer, 77GrandPrix, 02z, 20 invisible), 1,717 guests, and 47 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics290,904
Posts4,852,240
Members66,047
Most Online3,590
Jan 24th, 2017
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
New QSUD spec sheet #4391500
04/28/17 04:01 PM
04/28/17 04:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 726
NoVA
Lex94 Offline OP
Lex94  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 726
NoVA

Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94] #4391503
04/28/17 04:08 PM
04/28/17 04:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 632
Melbourne, Florida
RichardS Offline
RichardS  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 632
Melbourne, Florida
5 is a pretty good number, right? Lower = better?


2008 Dodge Caliber SE 2.0 117k
4qt Imeditsu 0w-20, 1/2qt Mobil SS 5w-20 Fram HM

2003 Buick Century 107k
4.5q Havoline 5w-30 HM Fram XG
Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94] #4391506
04/28/17 04:15 PM
04/28/17 04:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,387
Kendall, FL
wemay Offline
wemay  Offline
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,387
Kendall, FL
Fabulous Noack number for this 10W30.


'18 KIA Sportage LX AWD 2.4L: MSS 10w30
'13 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T: EDGE 5w30
Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94] #4391514
04/28/17 04:27 PM
04/28/17 04:27 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
It's a 10W-30. 10W-30 oils always have very low NOACK. 20W-50 would be even lower. What's the fascination about NOACK? Base-oil quality is determined by both NOACK and CCS together. Find me a 5W-30 with the same NOACK and then that oil actually does have quality base oil.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94] #4391519
04/28/17 04:46 PM
04/28/17 04:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
5% NOACK is not unusual for a Group III+ 10W-30.





So, the NOACK is not just a function of base-oil quality but also the viscosity. Within a given base-oil quality (an API Group such as I, II, III, or IV), thicker the oil, less will be the evaporation hence less the NOACK. You can achieve the same NOACK for a Group II 20W-50 that you would be for a Group IV or GTL 5W-30.

In other words, NOACK doesn't directly indicate how well an oil cleans or how long an oil lasts. You can have a Group II 20W-50 with 5% NOACK but that won't be a cleaning or long-lasting oil. NOACK is only low because the base oil is thick and therefore evaporates less. It will still break down and cause oil deposits as any other Group II.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: RichardS] #4391555
04/28/17 05:45 PM
04/28/17 05:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
Originally Posted By: RichardS
5 is a pretty good number, right? Lower = better?


Yes lower is better and 5% is very low. That's why narrow viscosity grade oils are so great, given they give you enough cold starting for your climate.

Look at the Noack limits
For API SN it's 15%
For Dexos1 and ACEA A5/B5 or A3/B3/B4 it's 13%
For MB 229.5 or MB 229.51 it's 10%

Given the natural low Noack of oils like 10W30 it's a shame it's not considered a "modern" grade and it's not a Dexos grade.

Still 10W30 and 15W40 are still big in heavy duty HDEO oils. Yes the old 20W50 was low too, but not many people use that anymore.

Still not everybody here is scared to go old school, here is a recent (2017) UOA of GTX 20W50, and it did very well, only 1 ppm iron wear in 3000 miles. That is very low.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4325449/


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94] #4391576
04/28/17 06:20 PM
04/28/17 06:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,997
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,997
MN
Gokhan's Shell graphs basically prove QSUD is GTL. Its a SOPUS product, so there you go. Like Pennzoil is GTL.
Notably, PQIA says low NOACK may mean better oxidation control: http://www.pqiamerica.com/Testdescriptions/Noack.html
Low NOACK should also mean not as much flashes off the cylinder walls and stays in the oil control rings for better lubrication.

Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: SR5] #4391578
04/28/17 06:23 PM
04/28/17 06:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: SR5
That's why narrow viscosity grade oils are so great

It's not the narrow or wide viscosity grade that makes NOACK low or high. It's the "x" in xW-y, it's not the "y minus x."

For example 5W-20 is a narrower viscosity grade than 10W-30 but NOACK will be similar to 5W-30 for a given base-oil type.

See the plots I posted above.

Likewise 10W-30 and 10W-40 will have similar NOACK, despite the latter being a lot wider.

Again, how low the NOACK or how thick the oil alone doesn't determine oil quality. It's the type of the base oil that determines the oil quality. You will still get a dirtier engine with a Group II 20W-50 in comparison to a Group III 0W-20, even though the former could have a lower NOACK.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: oil_film_movies] #4391588
04/28/17 06:34 PM
04/28/17 06:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Gokhan's Shell graphs basically prove QSUD is GTL.

The plots I have are for CCS @ -20 and @ -30 C. The datasheet has CCS @ -25 C. If you interpolate, it looks more like plain Group III. GTL or PAO would have about 1% NOACK for that CCS according to the plots.

However, Shell's GTL doesn't seem to be of high quality and the NOACK values we have been seeing with Pennzoil Platinum PurePlus have been very high for a GTL. But then GTL is also classified as a form of Group III. So, it could still be a GTL with good cleaning and oxidation properties.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Gokhan] #4391592
04/28/17 06:39 PM
04/28/17 06:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,824
In the shop
53' Stude Offline
53' Stude  Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,824
In the shop
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Gokhan's Shell graphs basically prove QSUD is GTL.

That's not clear. It could also be plain Group III. The plots I have are for CCS @ -20 and @ -30 C. The datasheet has CCS @ -25 C. If you interpolate, it looks more like plain Group III than GTL to me.


I love how you always speculate. Saying "it LOOKS more like"

Present actual facts please

Thanks

Another reason why I like reading SR5's info instead of your heresay


09' Camry LE, 141,020 miles

PP 5w30 and TG 4967
Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: 53' Stude] #4391598
04/28/17 06:42 PM
04/28/17 06:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: car51
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Gokhan's Shell graphs basically prove QSUD is GTL.

That's not clear. It could also be plain Group III. The plots I have are for CCS @ -20 and @ -30 C. The datasheet has CCS @ -25 C. If you interpolate, it looks more like plain Group III than GTL to me.

I love how you always speculate. Saying "it LOOKS more like"

Present actual facts please

Thanks

Another reason why I like reading SR5's info instead of your heresay

Is reading the CCS value from the datasheet and inserting into the plot to see if it's Group III or GTL speculation?

The datasheet says CCS @ -25 C is 3750 cP. Insert this into the first plot and you get NOACK about 2% for GTL. However, that graph is for -30 C. CCS would be a lot more at -30 C than at -25 C. So, this would give a NOACK between 0 to 1% for a 10W-30 with 3750 cP CCS (@ -25 C) made of GTL, according to the plot. Datasheet says 5%, which puts it in Group III rather than GTL.

However, Shell's GTL has been of low quality and of high NOACK as I said. They operate their gas-to-liquid reactors in Qatar quick and dirty just to reach Group III quality instead of what GTL is really capable of. So, it could still be cheap, low-quality Shell Qatar GTL.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94] #4391621
04/28/17 07:23 PM
04/28/17 07:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,824
In the shop
53' Stude Offline
53' Stude  Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,824
In the shop
Basically SOPUS knows this stuff. PP/PU appear to be higher quality products but we don't know how much GTL they use in QS stuff and the quality


09' Camry LE, 141,020 miles

PP 5w30 and TG 4967
Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Gokhan] #4391714
04/28/17 09:48 PM
04/28/17 09:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: SR5
That's why narrow viscosity grade oils are so great

It's not the narrow or wide viscosity grade that makes NOACK low or high. It's the "x" in xW-y, it's not the "y minus x."


Yes I agree, but I was just using the vernacular, but thanks for making it clear for new readers.

Sometimes it's good to look at real finished products all from the same company and at the same product level. Here is the Valvoline SynPower PDS which lists Noack volatility %.

http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/synpower.pdf

Noack

ILSAC Grades
0W20 = 12 %
5W20 = 10 %
5W30 = 10 %
10W30 = 10 %

Euro Grades
5W30 = 9 % (CCS = 6100 cP @ -30C)
5W30 = 10% (CCS = 5800 cP @ -30C)
5W40 = 10%
0W40 = 9%
20W50 = 8%

So going back to the OP's point, yes I do think 5% is good for a finished and real oil product. I'm also a little surprised that the SynPower 10W30 isn't a little better, but I will get over it. The best Noack here, is the synthetic 20W50 but no big surprises there.


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94] #4391801
04/29/17 02:05 AM
04/29/17 02:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
This was link was posted in a recent thread, and it's Noack figures are given to one decimal place. Probably a better data set to look at.
http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/valvoline_full_synthetic_with_maxlife_technology.pdf

It's for Valvoline Full Synthetic with MaxLife (2016)
noack % for ILSAC grades
0W20 = 11.4 %
5W20 = 9.3 %
5W30 = 10.2 %
10W30 = 6.3 %

That is more like what I would expect in a finished product from a good name brand company.


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94] #4409012
05/19/17 07:31 PM
05/19/17 07:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
merconvvv Offline
merconvvv  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 682
il usa
One cannot assume that 10w30 will have low noack.
And yes qsud lineup is gtl based. Group iii.


1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0
Page 1 of 2 1 2

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™