Recent Topics
08 Scion tC under valve cover pics
by Highboy
2 minutes 28 seconds ago
Storing extension ladded in garage?
by maverickfhs
14 minutes 20 seconds ago
Do you let your tool batteries go dead in storage
by Snagglefoot
Today at 07:20 AM
BITOG using excessive CPU power?
by Kibitoshin
Today at 05:10 AM
Any news on what happened to this plane?
by Exhaustgases
Today at 02:36 AM
E4OD fluid ?
by Exhaustgases
Today at 02:23 AM
Update password ?
by meadows
Yesterday at 11:59 PM
Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder
by Reddy45
Yesterday at 11:56 PM
Nissan DLR put 0w20 in car that specs 5w30. worry?
by CrAlt
Yesterday at 10:40 PM
revive Nicd battery
by Donald
Yesterday at 10:27 PM
Need help finding an apartment for friend
by RazorsEdge
Yesterday at 10:07 PM
ceratec with redline 5w30?
by 08z06
Yesterday at 09:53 PM
does your COMCAST modem have weak wifi??
by edwardh1
Yesterday at 09:50 PM
I hate stuck thermostats
by jakewells
Yesterday at 09:49 PM
Mag1 75w90
by SavagePatch
Yesterday at 09:32 PM
Old batteries at HD
by bbhero
Yesterday at 09:27 PM
Buying a CPO Toyota - still get inspected?
by Parlay_Slow
Yesterday at 09:08 PM
Water Pump Paper Gasket With RTV? Longevity?
by nobb
Yesterday at 08:22 PM
Who makes Briggs & Stratton oil?
by spk2000
Yesterday at 08:13 PM
Shure stylus replacement
by aquariuscsm
Yesterday at 07:54 PM
Newest Members
Orion62, Revd, blinky1041, mostdecent, T1TN
65261 Registered Users
Who's Online
71 registered (andyd, BAJA_05, Artem, 2009Edge, badtlc, AandPDan, 7 invisible), 1428 Guests and 39 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
65261 Members
67 Forums
285507 Topics
4764818 Posts

Max Online: 3590 @ 01/24/17 08:07 PM
Donate to BITOG
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#4391500 - 04/28/17 04:01 PM New QSUD spec sheet
Lex94 Offline


Registered: 09/28/06
Posts: 726
Loc: NoVA

Top
#4391503 - 04/28/17 04:08 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94]
RichardS Offline


Registered: 01/14/17
Posts: 616
Loc: Melbourne, Florida
5 is a pretty good number, right? Lower = better?
_________________________
2008 Dodge Caliber SE 2.0 117k
4qt Imeditsu 0w-20, 1/2qt Mobil SS 5w-20 Fram HM

2003 Buick Century 107k
4.5q Havoline 5w-30 HM Fram XG

Top
#4391506 - 04/28/17 04:15 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 8861
Loc: Southeast Florida
Fabulous Noack number for this 10W30.
_________________________
2017 Hyundai Sonata Sport 2.4L
2013 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T

Top
#4391514 - 04/28/17 04:27 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 2987
Loc: Los Angeles, California
It's a 10W-30. 10W-30 oils always have very low NOACK. 20W-50 would be even lower. What's the fascination about NOACK? Base-oil quality is determined by both NOACK and CCS together. Find me a 5W-30 with the same NOACK and then that oil actually does have quality base oil.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN synthetic
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

Top
#4391519 - 04/28/17 04:46 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 2987
Loc: Los Angeles, California
5% NOACK is not unusual for a Group III+ 10W-30.





So, the NOACK is not just a function of base-oil quality but also the viscosity. Within a given base-oil quality (an API Group such as I, II, III, or IV), thicker the oil, less will be the evaporation hence less the NOACK. You can achieve the same NOACK for a Group II 20W-50 that you would be for a Group IV or GTL 5W-30.

In other words, NOACK doesn't directly indicate how well an oil cleans or how long an oil lasts. You can have a Group II 20W-50 with 5% NOACK but that won't be a cleaning or long-lasting oil. NOACK is only low because the base oil is thick and therefore evaporates less. It will still break down and cause oil deposits as any other Group II.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN synthetic
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

Top
#4391555 - 04/28/17 05:45 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: RichardS]
SR5 Offline


Registered: 07/07/15
Posts: 4456
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: RichardS
5 is a pretty good number, right? Lower = better?


Yes lower is better and 5% is very low. That's why narrow viscosity grade oils are so great, given they give you enough cold starting for your climate.

Look at the Noack limits
For API SN it's 15%
For Dexos1 and ACEA A5/B5 or A3/B3/B4 it's 13%
For MB 229.5 or MB 229.51 it's 10%

Given the natural low Noack of oils like 10W30 it's a shame it's not considered a "modern" grade and it's not a Dexos grade.

Still 10W30 and 15W40 are still big in heavy duty HDEO oils. Yes the old 20W50 was low too, but not many people use that anymore.

Still not everybody here is scared to go old school, here is a recent (2017) UOA of GTX 20W50, and it did very well, only 1 ppm iron wear in 3000 miles. That is very low.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4325449/
_________________________
Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154

Top
#4391576 - 04/28/17 06:20 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94]
oil_film_movies Offline


Registered: 06/13/16
Posts: 2548
Loc: MN
Gokhan's Shell graphs basically prove QSUD is GTL. Its a SOPUS product, so there you go. Like Pennzoil is GTL.
Notably, PQIA says low NOACK may mean better oxidation control: http://www.pqiamerica.com/Testdescriptions/Noack.html
Low NOACK should also mean not as much flashes off the cylinder walls and stays in the oil control rings for better lubrication.

Top
#4391578 - 04/28/17 06:23 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: SR5]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 2987
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: SR5
That's why narrow viscosity grade oils are so great

It's not the narrow or wide viscosity grade that makes NOACK low or high. It's the "x" in xW-y, it's not the "y minus x."

For example 5W-20 is a narrower viscosity grade than 10W-30 but NOACK will be similar to 5W-30 for a given base-oil type.

See the plots I posted above.

Likewise 10W-30 and 10W-40 will have similar NOACK, despite the latter being a lot wider.

Again, how low the NOACK or how thick the oil alone doesn't determine oil quality. It's the type of the base oil that determines the oil quality. You will still get a dirtier engine with a Group II 20W-50 in comparison to a Group III 0W-20, even though the former could have a lower NOACK.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN synthetic
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

Top
#4391588 - 04/28/17 06:34 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: oil_film_movies]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 2987
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Gokhan's Shell graphs basically prove QSUD is GTL.

The plots I have are for CCS @ -20 and @ -30 C. The datasheet has CCS @ -25 C. If you interpolate, it looks more like plain Group III. GTL or PAO would have about 1% NOACK for that CCS according to the plots.

However, Shell's GTL doesn't seem to be of high quality and the NOACK values we have been seeing with Pennzoil Platinum PurePlus have been very high for a GTL. But then GTL is also classified as a form of Group III. So, it could still be a GTL with good cleaning and oxidation properties.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN synthetic
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

Top
#4391592 - 04/28/17 06:39 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Gokhan]
car51 Offline


Registered: 03/12/15
Posts: 10251
Loc: Southwest PA
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Gokhan's Shell graphs basically prove QSUD is GTL.

That's not clear. It could also be plain Group III. The plots I have are for CCS @ -20 and @ -30 C. The datasheet has CCS @ -25 C. If you interpolate, it looks more like plain Group III than GTL to me.


I love how you always speculate. Saying "it LOOKS more like"

Present actual facts please

Thanks

Another reason why I like reading SR5's info instead of your heresay
_________________________
2009 Toyota Camry LE

Top
#4391598 - 04/28/17 06:42 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: car51]
Gokhan Offline


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 2987
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: car51
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Gokhan's Shell graphs basically prove QSUD is GTL.

That's not clear. It could also be plain Group III. The plots I have are for CCS @ -20 and @ -30 C. The datasheet has CCS @ -25 C. If you interpolate, it looks more like plain Group III than GTL to me.

I love how you always speculate. Saying "it LOOKS more like"

Present actual facts please

Thanks

Another reason why I like reading SR5's info instead of your heresay

Is reading the CCS value from the datasheet and inserting into the plot to see if it's Group III or GTL speculation?

The datasheet says CCS @ -25 C is 3750 cP. Insert this into the first plot and you get NOACK about 2% for GTL. However, that graph is for -30 C. CCS would be a lot more at -30 C than at -25 C. So, this would give a NOACK between 0 to 1% for a 10W-30 with 3750 cP CCS (@ -25 C) made of GTL, according to the plot. Datasheet says 5%, which puts it in Group III rather than GTL.

However, Shell's GTL has been of low quality and of high NOACK as I said. They operate their gas-to-liquid reactors in Qatar quick and dirty just to reach Group III quality instead of what GTL is really capable of. So, it could still be cheap, low-quality Shell Qatar GTL.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN synthetic
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

Top
#4391621 - 04/28/17 07:23 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94]
car51 Offline


Registered: 03/12/15
Posts: 10251
Loc: Southwest PA
Basically SOPUS knows this stuff. PP/PU appear to be higher quality products but we don't know how much GTL they use in QS stuff and the quality
_________________________
2009 Toyota Camry LE

Top
#4391714 - 04/28/17 09:48 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Gokhan]
SR5 Offline


Registered: 07/07/15
Posts: 4456
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: SR5
That's why narrow viscosity grade oils are so great

It's not the narrow or wide viscosity grade that makes NOACK low or high. It's the "x" in xW-y, it's not the "y minus x."


Yes I agree, but I was just using the vernacular, but thanks for making it clear for new readers.

Sometimes it's good to look at real finished products all from the same company and at the same product level. Here is the Valvoline SynPower PDS which lists Noack volatility %.

http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/synpower.pdf

Noack

ILSAC Grades
0W20 = 12 %
5W20 = 10 %
5W30 = 10 %
10W30 = 10 %

Euro Grades
5W30 = 9 % (CCS = 6100 cP @ -30C)
5W30 = 10% (CCS = 5800 cP @ -30C)
5W40 = 10%
0W40 = 9%
20W50 = 8%

So going back to the OP's point, yes I do think 5% is good for a finished and real oil product. I'm also a little surprised that the SynPower 10W30 isn't a little better, but I will get over it. The best Noack here, is the synthetic 20W50 but no big surprises there.
_________________________
Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154

Top
#4391801 - 04/29/17 02:05 AM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94]
SR5 Offline


Registered: 07/07/15
Posts: 4456
Loc: Down Under
This was link was posted in a recent thread, and it's Noack figures are given to one decimal place. Probably a better data set to look at.
http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/valvoline_full_synthetic_with_maxlife_technology.pdf

It's for Valvoline Full Synthetic with MaxLife (2016)
noack % for ILSAC grades
0W20 = 11.4 %
5W20 = 9.3 %
5W30 = 10.2 %
10W30 = 6.3 %

That is more like what I would expect in a finished product from a good name brand company.
_________________________
Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154

Top
#4409012 - 05/19/17 07:31 PM Re: New QSUD spec sheet [Re: Lex94]
merconvvv Offline


Registered: 07/10/16
Posts: 682
Loc: il usa
One cannot assume that 10w30 will have low noack.
And yes qsud lineup is gtl based. Group iii.
_________________________
1988 Mazda RX7 na PP 10w30 Noack 4.7
1994 Chrysler Concorde 3.3
1999 Ford Expedition 4.6 QSUD 10W30 NOACK 5.0

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >