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Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L #4375161
04/09/17 05:09 AM
04/09/17 05:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
turboseize Online content OP
turboseize  Online Content OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
Next UOA for my classic Saab 900 turbo 16. (B202L, 16 Valve DOHC with hydraulic tappets, Garrett T3 turbocharger, Bosch LH-Jet multi-port injection, oil change volume ~3.8 to 4 litres, total volume including oil cooler 4.5 litres.)
I had done an UOA on the Shell before, but I was starting to get a bit worried about the hydraulic lifters making some noise when not hot. (Drive 600km Autobahn at or in excess of 120-130km/h, leave the Autobahn and idle at the end of the off-ramp and everything is fine. Then drive 15 minutes through town and the ticking starts. Cruise smoothly over B-roads, it will tick at idle. Very spirited drive on a winding mountain road, silence. Coast downhill, ticking...)


OIL Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40
MILES IN USE 6524 (10497km), 5.5 months
MILES 373837 (601503km)
SAMPLE TAKEN 17/03/26
FILTER: Mann w712/80

wear metals (mg/kg)

IRON 12
CHROME 1
TIN 1
ALUMINUM 1
NICKEL 0
COPPER 6
LEAD 2
MANGANESE 0


pollution (mg/kg)

SILICON 11
POTASSIUM 2
SODIUM 4
WATER (%) <0.1
IR-GLYKOL negative
FUEL (%) 0.86


Additives (mg/kg)

CALCIUM 2207
MAGNESIUM 11
BORON 48
ZINC 949
PHOSPHORUS 779
BARIUM 0
MOLYBDENUM 52
SULPHUR 1797


state of oil:

visc. @40°C (mm2/s) 72.61
visc. @100°C (mm2/s) 13.01
VI 182
OXYDATION (A/cm) 5
NITRATION (A/cm) 4
SULFATION (A/cm) 6
dispergency* (%) 89
SOOT INDEX** <0.1
BN N/A


* the german word was "Schmutztragevermögen", hope I translated that right.
** the lab has introduced the "Rußindex", an in-house tool to check for soot in
gasoline oil, as soot from direct-injection engines will not show correctly in the
standard test for diesel oils



Here is the original. On the left: Shell Helix Ultra, Shell Helix Ultra again, then Aral Super Tronic, to the right Mobil1 "New Life".




More on my blog: https://turboseize.wordpress.com/2017/04...saab-900-turbo/


previous analysis discussed here:
Shell, 591k: blog, bitog
Aral, 572k: blog, bitog bitog
Mobil1, 551: blog, bitog bitog


Usage pattern was unchanged. Two to three short trips a week to the boat house (2x8km), then long-distances (2x580km) cruises over the weekend.
Silicone has gone up from the last uoa. Might be due to th echeap filter, might also be the big construction side on the neighbouring lot, where they tore down a high-rise complex. Demolition work started roughly with the beginning of the OCI...
The hydraulic lifter noise I was concerned about does not seem to cause any wear.
I did not order a BN test this time, as the last ones showed that BN is of no concern with my usage pattern, and a BN test cost an extra ~20€...


Current oil is Shell Helix Ultra 0w-30 AV-L. Some slight hydro noise upon startup, but once warm, the engine is silent. Will definitely do an UOA with that oil to see if viscosity is high enough for the bearings and cylinders/piston rings. But with the AV-L being ACEA C3, it must have HTHS >3.5, so the bottom end should do ok...

Last edited by turboseize; 04/09/17 05:22 AM.

Life ist too short for boring cars.
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: turboseize] #4375189
04/09/17 06:30 AM
04/09/17 06:30 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 308
Hungary
zoli Offline
zoli  Offline
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 308
Hungary
Wow! Thx for sharing these very pro analytics - even your test program is amazing!!!
Regarding the lifter noise: did you check the cleanliness of the screen on the pick-up tube in the sump? My B205E engine had it terribly clogged...


2001 VOLVO S60 2.0t L5 A/T
239K+ M | B5204T2 | Total Q9KE 5W40 | Mahle OX149D | OCI 6K M
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: turboseize] #4375204
04/09/17 07:01 AM
04/09/17 07:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,653
down in the park
Jetronic Offline
Jetronic  Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,653
down in the park
Which lab did this report? Being from Europe myself, this might be better suited than Blackstone or Polaris


AR Giulietta 2.0 JTDM-2 -- Total Quartz 9000 Energy 0w30
Hankook Ventus Prime 2 215/50R17 (front)
Pirelli P7 Cinturato 225/45R17 (rear)
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: zoli] #4375207
04/09/17 07:08 AM
04/09/17 07:08 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
turboseize Online content OP
turboseize  Online Content OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
Originally Posted By: zoli
Wow! Thx for sharing these very pro analytics - even your test program is amazing!!!
Regarding the lifter noise: did you check the cleanliness of the screen on the pick-up tube in the sump? My B205E engine had it terribly clogged...


With a classic 900, dropping the oil pan is not that easy. cool
You'd have to dismount engine and gearbox, and then separate gearbox and engine outside of the car. The gearbox is under the engine, and the gearbox housing is cast in such a a way that there is room for the oil sump.
Also, the screen on the pick-up tube of b202 and b204/b234 has a much coarser net then the later b205/b235 engines.

But I had the gearbox rebuilt some 65000km ago. That is, my mechanic rebuilt a second gearbox, due to (lack of) parts availability as a Frankenstein's monster consisting of three gearboxes, including some gears and the synchromesh of original one. But the housing was taken from a different one. So it might be possible that the sump of the donor gearbox might have had some gunk baked onto the surfaces that came loose in my engine... but else, I do not see any chance for crud in my engine, given the meticulous maintenance history.
Also, the ticking started about half an OCI after the gearbox rebuilt. But that might also have been coincidence. Or maybe my hydros are just worn out after ~600.000km.

btw, this is how my original oil sump looked like at km 534000:


https://turboseize.wordpress.com/2015/03/04/was-lang-wahrt/

Some varnish, but no sludge or crud.




Last edited by turboseize; 04/09/17 07:22 AM.

Life ist too short for boring cars.
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: Jetronic] #4375216
04/09/17 07:24 AM
04/09/17 07:24 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
turboseize Online content OP
turboseize  Online Content OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Which lab did this report? Being from Europe myself, this might be better suited than Blackstone or Polaris


These were done by www.oelcheck.de

Cost a lot more than blackstone, but you do not have the hassle of sending samples to the other side of the globe.

Last edited by turboseize; 04/09/17 07:27 AM.

Life ist too short for boring cars.
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: turboseize] #4375220
04/09/17 07:33 AM
04/09/17 07:33 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 308
Hungary
zoli Offline
zoli  Offline
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 308
Hungary
Do you have an oil pressure gauge? I mean not the alert lamp, but a real gauge.
My another bet: oil pump.

Edit: but you have some professional SAAB garages there to find the reason of ticking lifters.

Last edited by zoli; 04/09/17 07:36 AM.

2001 VOLVO S60 2.0t L5 A/T
239K+ M | B5204T2 | Total Q9KE 5W40 | Mahle OX149D | OCI 6K M
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: turboseize] #4375229
04/09/17 07:57 AM
04/09/17 07:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
turboseize Online content OP
turboseize  Online Content OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
No, unfortunately no oil pressure gauge. But then, oil pressure at the filter does not necessarily equal oil flow to the head...

Oil pump also had been replaced just 190000km ago.


Life ist too short for boring cars.
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: turboseize] #4375233
04/09/17 08:05 AM
04/09/17 08:05 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 308
Hungary
zoli Offline
zoli  Offline
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 308
Hungary
I know, but let me allowed explain my example: time-to-time I had ticking noise at the top of the engine at hot circumstances. So installed the sending unit into the valve cover to be relaxed about the perfect oil pressure. OK, my engine was not so bulletproof like your designed one...
(Later on found the source of noise by a stetoscope: the PS was worn.)
I will look for a photo soon.


2001 VOLVO S60 2.0t L5 A/T
239K+ M | B5204T2 | Total Q9KE 5W40 | Mahle OX149D | OCI 6K M
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: turboseize] #4375252
04/09/17 08:42 AM
04/09/17 08:42 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,260
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,260
Malaysia
Machinerylubrication probably translate "Schmutztragevermögen" as Dispersancy Index......
..at Dispersancy Index of 89%, this oil condition is considered as very pristine/excellent condition.
Aren't Euro OCI's typically varies from 15000 km to 35000 km ?
I consider your current OCI of 10497km as being too short an interval .... probably OCI of 20000-30000 km is fitting for your application ? IDK. confused

Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: turboseize] #4375647
04/09/17 06:42 PM
04/09/17 06:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
turboseize Online content OP
turboseize  Online Content OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
Originally Posted By: zoli
I know, but let me allowed explain my example: time-to-time I had ticking noise at the top of the engine at hot circumstances. So installed the sending unit into the valve cover to be relaxed about the perfect oil pressure. OK, my engine was not so bulletproof like your designed one...
(Later on found the source of noise by a stetoscope: the PS was worn.)
I will look for a photo soon.


I had experienced hydro tick when hot before: way back intime before the rebuild, while I was still running cheap semi-synth 10w-40, after 5000km hydros would start to tick when idling hot. At that time, oild would also turn very dark... I guess that was the time when heat and shear had killed the VI improvers. So I just shortened my OCIs to 5000km and everything was fine.

Now, I am only using much better oils and running them for 10000km. And the hydraulic tappets are silent only when the engine is steaming hot. Cold or luke warm, at least one hydro is ticking... So a completely different situation.




Originally Posted By: zeng
Machinerylubrication probably translate "Schmutztragevermögen" as Dispersancy Index......
..at Dispersancy Index of 89%, this oil condition is considered as very pristine/excellent condition.
Aren't Euro OCI's typically varies from 15000 km to 35000 km ?
I consider your current OCI of 10497km as being too short an interval .... probably OCI of 20000-30000 km is fitting for your application ? IDK. confused


Owners manual calls for 7500km OCI, in severe service half of that. So I am already exceeding OCI by 33%!
But then, the manual is from 1985 and knows only API SF/CD. cool grin

With those early turbos, it really depends on your driving profile. My first Saab had the very same engine - B202 turbo with Garret T3 turbocharger - but also had oil temp and oil pressure gauges. Entirely possible to get oil temperatures way in excess of 130°C, even with an oil cooler! I could kill a semi-synthetic 10w-40 in a single weekend. Two high-speed runs of 600km in four hours each and the oil will be pitch black, and you might get oil pressure problems at idle when hot. A synthetic (PAO or GTL) does take this abuse better.
But driven gently, even a semi-synthetic will stay reasonably clear for 7500km...

With my driving profile - mostly gentle cruises at 120-130km/h, very few short trips and only one or two weekends of very spirited driving during an OCI - and with modern synthetic (PAO or GTL) oils, longer intervals should very well be doable. My mechanic (the guy who rebuilt my engine) thinks that unless I change my driving profile a fully synthetic should be safe for 20.000km...

Last edited by turboseize; 04/09/17 06:55 PM.

Life ist too short for boring cars.
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: turboseize] #4375822
04/09/17 11:04 PM
04/09/17 11:04 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 308
Hungary
zoli Offline
zoli  Offline
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 308
Hungary
Perfect SAABer! smile Keep this oil change period and your maintenance plan - your classic car will serve you forever!
I created some list https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...it?usp=drivesdk for reasonable priced alternative oils like for my S60. Mobil Super 3000 will be out this week (after 5000 km) and Total Quartz 9000 Energy 5W40 will be in for 5000 km (cleaning period after some low performance oils had been filled by former owner for years) - after that back to M1 0W40 or Shell HU 5W40 GTL or Castrol Edge Titanium 0W40 A3/B4 from Germany (Amazon has free delivery to Hungary above EUR 40) - just to give you some input if you think on trying different oils.

Last edited by zoli; 04/09/17 11:15 PM.

2001 VOLVO S60 2.0t L5 A/T
239K+ M | B5204T2 | Total Q9KE 5W40 | Mahle OX149D | OCI 6K M
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: turboseize] #4375855
04/10/17 01:41 AM
04/10/17 01:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,260
Malaysia
zeng Offline
zeng  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,260
Malaysia
Originally Posted By: turboseize
Owners manual calls for 7500km OCI, in severe service half of that. So I am already exceeding OCI by 33%!
But then, the manual is from 1985 and knows only API SF/CD. cool grin

With those early turbos, it really depends on your driving profile. My first Saab had the very same engine - B202 turbo with Garret T3 turbocharger - but also had oil temp and oil pressure gauges. Entirely possible to get oil temperatures way in excess of 130°C, even with an oil cooler! I could kill a semi-synthetic 10w-40 in a single weekend. Two high-speed runs of 600km in four hours each and the oil will be pitch black, and you might get oil pressure problems at idle when hot. A synthetic (PAO or GTL) does take this abuse better.
But driven gently, even a semi-synthetic will stay reasonably clear for 7500km...

With my driving profile - mostly gentle cruises at 120-130km/h, very few short trips and only one or two weekends of very spirited driving during an OCI - and with modern synthetic (PAO or GTL) oils, longer intervals should very well be doable. My mechanic (the guy who rebuilt my engine) thinks that unless I change my driving profile a fully synthetic should be safe for 20.000km...

Ooops, it's a classic 1980's engines! confused
My colleague had one of these in a Saab 9xx ....... with mineral oils OCI's of 3000-5000 km , and bleeding $$$ with relatively low availability against a Japanese engine in that era.
Nonetheless, looking at this rather 'comprehensive and thorough' UOA report of yours and attached Blotter Spot pictures, I still believe you have headrooms to extend OCI beyond 12000 km .... progressively moving towards 20000 km...... and then take it from there.

Btw, didn't realise this is such a high operating temperature machine ...... oils with PAO/Ester contents is probably non-negotiable, I suppose.

Last edited by zeng; 04/10/17 01:42 AM.
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: turboseize] #4376161
04/10/17 01:29 PM
04/10/17 01:29 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 308
Hungary
zoli Offline
zoli  Offline
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 308
Hungary




The socket wrench is pointing on the bolt was removed for screwing in the oil pressure and temperature sending units.

Last edited by zoli; 04/10/17 01:32 PM.

2001 VOLVO S60 2.0t L5 A/T
239K+ M | B5204T2 | Total Q9KE 5W40 | Mahle OX149D | OCI 6K M
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: turboseize] #4376756
04/11/17 09:19 AM
04/11/17 09:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
turboseize Online content OP
turboseize  Online Content OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
Originally Posted By: zeng

Ooops, it's a classic 1980's engines! confused
My colleague had one of these in a Saab 9xx ....... with mineral oils OCI's of 3000-5000 km , and bleeding $$$ with relatively low availability against a Japanese engine in that era.
Nonetheless, looking at this rather 'comprehensive and thorough' UOA report of yours and attached Blotter Spot pictures, I still believe you have headrooms to extend OCI beyond 12000 km .... progressively moving towards 20000 km...... and then take it from there.

Btw, didn't realise this is such a high operating temperature machine ...... oils with PAO/Ester contents is probably non-negotiable, I suppose.


Well, it is not generally a hot running engine. Just cruising along, oil temperature in the sump will be 85-100°C. But you still have the Garrett T3, which is not water-cooled, and in this place the oil gets exposed to really hot surfaces.
Oil temperatures in the sump of more than 130°C are totally possibly, but then we are talking of empying a tank of fuel in 1.5 hours. You need a racetrack for that. Or a moountain pass without speed cameras (and without cops with radar guns.) But running home around midnight on a german Autobahn will do, too. Happens very rarely to my car, but sometimes, that is what is needed. cool


Originally Posted By: zoli
The socket wrench is pointing on the bolt was removed for screwing in the oil pressure and temperature sending units.

Thats a b205 in a 9-5, right? Heads are all different between all Saab families (b202,b2x4,b2x5), but thy typically share the same bolt patterns. Would have to have a look closer look at mine. But that might be very crowded, the B202 has the distributor (and its heat shield) mounted on the "front right" corner of the motor. The turbo is very close nearby...



In the next picture, the heat shield is removed and you can see the turbo:






Last edited by turboseize; 04/11/17 09:29 AM.

Life ist too short for boring cars.
Re: Shell Helix Ultra 0w-40, 10497km in Saab B202L [Re: turboseize] #4664761
02/13/18 01:07 PM
02/13/18 01:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany
turboseize Online content OP
turboseize  Online Content OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 242
Germany

Last edited by turboseize; 02/13/18 01:07 PM.

Life ist too short for boring cars.

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