New Lubes / CLP's You Want To Try In 2017 ?

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Back last December I was at my club range early on a Monday morning. It was sunny, and about 50 degrees at the time. I had the place all to myself for about an hour, when this truck pulled up. A guy was there with his young son. After they got set up they uncased a Stag Arms AR-15. I saw him pulling hard on the charging handle, trying to get the bolt back. All to no avail. After a couple of minutes I walked over and asked if I could help. He asked if I knew what was wrong, and handed me the weapon. I could smell a slight trace of mint as I closely examined the gun. I asked when he last shot it, and he said it was in his safe since early last Summer. I then asked what he lubed it with, and he told me...... you guessed it, Frog Lube.

I pulled on the charging handle VERY HARD, and the bolt didn't budge. He then tried to get it open with no luck. This went on for about 10 minutes, and they were just about ready to call it quits and head back home. Normally I don't like screwing around with other peoples guns, but this poor guy seemed at a loss. I told him I had a spare charging handle in my range cart, and I would be glad to let him use it if his broke, or got damaged trying to get it open. I had him hold the weapon firmly by the forend with the muzzle off to his side while pointing it downrange, while I held the butt with one hand, and yanked on the charging handle as hard as I possibly could with mechanics gloves on. Finally it opened.

I cycled it a few times and pulled the rear takedown pin, and removed the bolt carrier and charging handle. I disassembled the firing pin retaining pin, pulled both the pin, bolt cam pin, and the bolt out of the gun. I had to push the cam pin out with the firing pin it was so gummed up. Everything I touched was a complete gooey, gummed up mess. Almost like it was coated with Molasses, only thicker, and just as brown. I had a big bottle of Hoppes #9 with me and some rags. And he spent about 15 minutes trying to clean everything off as best he could. I had some Mobil 1 in a squeeze bottle, and I liberally soaked everything with it until the parts were literally dripping. We reassembled it, and it ran like a scalded dog. Both he and his son were very happy. Needless to say he told me he was done with that garbage. I was amazed how that junk locked up that gun.


Got a couple of similar anecdotes with WD40 with .22s at the local range.

Firing pins not striking hard enough, guy with the can runs around with his fix, which is to douse everything in WD40...two months later the WD40 has turned to gum, rinse and repeat.

I started taking a can of white spirits and synthetic ATF "two stroke" to dissolve that gummy mess, and provide a light lube.

 

[ChrisD46]

A guy who uses frog lube and shoots 80K rounds per year is not going to have a gumming problem - it's the guy like described in the Built460 post who puts his weapon away for 6 months who is going to have the problem ... Lucky he was just going to the range instead of confronting a house invasion !

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
A guy who uses frog lube and shoots 80K rounds per year is not going to have a gumming problem - it's the guy like described in the Built460 post who puts his weapon away for 6 months who is going to have the problem ... Lucky he was just going to the range instead of confronting a house invasion !


You make an important point. Here is the biggest problem I'm seeing with people defending this worthless slop. As soon as someone starts having sticking and gumming issues with their weapon, (of which there are MANY), right away the people who think this stuff is the greatest thing since Monday Night Football, and three men in the booth, come back and are quick to point out how, "they didn't apply it right". And right away start in with all of these application methods. Along with all of this nonsense about how, "He put too much on". Or else, "He didn't heat it after applying it". And start in with how you are supposed to, "wipe off the excess after it soaks into the pores of the metal". Or some such silly nonsense.

I'll admit to the fact the guy I ran into and helped, had an excessive amount on the weapon. I asked him why he had applied so much, and he told me he had read that AR-15's should always be run wet and well lubricated. He said he didn't know the stuff was going to turn into adhesive in his gun safe. I have to admit the man made a good point. Even if the application was excessive, why would anyone want to use anything that is that temperamental? You can literally hose something down with Weaponshield, Mobil 1, or Breakfree CLP and leave it sit for months, and it won't gum up a weapon like that.

The fact of the matter is, most any other lubricant on the market will not change it's characteristics once it's applied, regardless of time. At best any excessive lubricant will either run off, or else dry out. Not turn into concrete, locking up everything that moves in the process. As you pointed out, what if it was a home defense weapon? The outcome could have been far worse than a PITA day at the range. That ended well because the poor guy found me to help him pry open his AR-15, so he could get the first round chambered.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Yep, the active shooter can even use 3 In 1 Oil successfully, as long as he's not allowing long lapses where the 3 In 1 is allowed enough time to gum-up the gun's internals.

Not only any oil can be successful in some situations, but there's also shooters that regularly use Vaseline as their gun grease. So using subpar gun oils and greases - homemeade concoctions too, can be sustainable - can be successful, depending on type of gun and severity percentages of use.

 

[JDM396]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
JDM - you lack any hard data to show that it works, either. Your posts in support of Frog Lube are all equally anecdotal. A shooter here, a shooter there.

No tests.

Nothing showing that I should spend three times as much on the "Stuff that SEALS use" over a regular product.

So, to take the thread back on topic: New lubes that I want to try in 2017?

None really. I might try lubriplate on the M1 that I'm building next week. I might stick with the Mobil I've been using on my other M1.

But I'm sure as heck not going to use any of my hard earned $$ on Frog Lube.



You might want to go back and read what was said from the beginning. I'm not touting FL as the best out there. However, there has been some misinformation relayed.

As far as anecdotes, I've been saying this all along, hence my comment the plural of anecdote doesn't constitute fact. What I asked for proof for was the "rancid" theory and the chemical makeup, since there was some concrete statements made. In which the lack of evidence doesn't support his comments. Again, I'm not sure why the demand for some data on a forum like this is such a foreign request to some.

Back to my original statement, spend money as you wish, there are several lubes out there that work if you do your part.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: JDM396
What I asked for proof for was the "rancid" theory and the chemical makeup, since there was some concrete statements made.


And exactly what outcome would it change if you had this "proof" you are so persistent in seeking? The end result is still the same regardless. The statements are "concrete", as you call them, because they actually happened. It gums up weapons over time. It doesn't matter if you call it rancid, sticky, gooey, rotten, or just plain BAD. Tag it with any description or adjective you wish. It's immaterial because it all points consistently to the same problem across the board. Countless people are having this lubricant congealing and sticking, that none of them had with any other weapon lubricant. The fact of the matter is, Frog Lube changes it's characteristics and consistency over time, after it has been applied. It really doesn't mater why it does, or for what reason.

Anecdotes or tests, it doesn't matter in the least if the result is always the same. Which it is. Apply it, store it, wait long enough, and it gums up the weapon enough to render it useless. You really don't need laboratory testing to convince you, once you have experienced it. You are simply going to switch to a lubricant that isn't going to have those annoying properties. Which seems to be most anything on the market, other than Frog Lube.

 

[JDM396]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: JDM396
What I asked for proof for was the "rancid" theory and the chemical makeup, since there was some concrete statements made.


And exactly what outcome would it change if you had this "proof" you are so persistent in seeking? The end result is still the same regardless. The statements are "concrete", as you call them, because they actually happened. It gums up weapons over time. It doesn't matter if you call it rancid, sticky, gooey, rotten, or just plain BAD. Tag it with any description or adjective you wish. It's immaterial because it all points consistently to the same problem across the board. Countless people are having this lubricant congealing and sticking, that none of them had with any other weapon lubricant. The fact of the matter is, Frog Lube changes it's characteristics and consistency over time, after it has been applied. It really doesn't mater why it does, or for what reason.

Anecdotes or tests, it doesn't matter in the least if the result is always the same. Which it is. Apply it, store it, wait long enough, and it gums up the weapon enough to render it useless. You really don't need laboratory testing to convince you, once you have experienced it. You are simply going to switch to a lubricant that isn't going to have those annoying properties. Which seems to be most anything on the market, other than Frog Lube.



By now I'm not surprised you haven't figured out that my requests were rhetorical. Basically, I knew what I was asking was likely more in depth than you could provide. I've been around guns and especially guys talking about guns on forums long enough to understand some people really believe their anecdotes are gospel or fact. Some don't even understand the variables that could come into play. For example, I have seen someone apply too much Mobil 1 on a firearm and it resulted in multiple failures, well I'm objective enough and had enough experience with Mobil 1 to understand it was operator error and that it works fine if applied properly. This isn't rocket science. Nonetheless, I understand people resist change or being exposed to anything different to a fault. Guys will find fault with just about anything be it parts, platforms, and especially lubes because anything different might mean they are wrong about their choice. When in fact lots of parts work just fine, lots of platforms are reliable, and lots of lube ( as I originally stated) work great. If you're around firearms long enough you'll hear some good ones.... ARs are unreliable.... 1911s are unreliable.... glock will KB on you.... don't carry this way or that way.... etc etc. No different here IMO.


What I'm saying is, data that we could reference could eliminate the variables to a degree. Again, this is science 101, and seemingly integral to what you see on this forum with UOAs, VOAs, etc. You say FL changes over time. I believe the chemical change will be there as everything degrades over time, but I don't think it significant with FL. Sorry, it doesn't gum up or go "rancid" as you say in 6 months. That's just pure [censored] IMO, and from my anecdotes completely untrue, but I've heard a lot of "gun shop talk" over the years. However, that's my opinion and experience, as well as the experience of many I have seen. What I am offering is that you provide a backing to your statements so that we can discuss facts? You provide that FL changes over time, it may, but what's the significance of that timeframe? Do you honestly believe it's months? Is it days? Years? Tell us, what's the critical period to where this stuff turns into "concrete" lol.... in your OPINION?

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: JDM396
.....This isn't rocket science.


And yet you keep trying to make it such.

Originally Posted By: JDM396
You provide that FL changes over time, it may, but what's the significance of that timeframe? Do you honestly believe it's months?


What difference does it make? It gums up guns, period. Why is it that you are having so much trouble understanding and accepting that? No one else does. I already told you the guy used it in the Summer, and stored his gun until December. It was a gummed up mess when he tried to use it. So much so I had to help him get it apart. It doesn't matter if it takes 4 months or 6. You keep running around in circles with this. Why, I have no idea.

 

[JHZR2]

Ok, the FL has run its course. I'm leaving this open for others to post their cleaners and lubes to use, but will delete any further banter on this, so don't waste your time.