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Engine oil additives little changed during OCI #4343296 03/01/17 08:48 PM
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ledslinger Offline OP
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Which additives levels change little during an OCI?

Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: ledslinger] #4343300 03/01/17 08:54 PM
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Ohle_Manezzini Offline
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Are you willing to add the highly changeables to keep the oil useable?

Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: ledslinger] #4343311 03/01/17 09:05 PM
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CT8 Offline
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The additive change little by measurement but they can be depleted.


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Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: CT8] #4343320 03/01/17 09:12 PM
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Linctex Offline
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Originally Posted By: CT8
The additive change little by measurement but they can be depleted.


Do you mean (for example) that Zinc (ZDDP) and Moly numbers remain high, but "insolubles" get so high that they negate the remaining additives?


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: ledslinger] #4343343 03/01/17 09:34 PM
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The calcium for example will still to spec but it wont buffer any more.Looking at the UOAs the additive PPM numbers seem not to change


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Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: ledslinger] #4343352 03/01/17 09:45 PM
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Donald Offline
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For big diesel engine they publish guides as to when to change. Iron, soot, fuel dillution, and TBN. When one of them gets too high or low its time to change the oil. The ppm of additives is not really directly considered.


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Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: ledslinger] #4343456 03/02/17 04:02 AM
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weasley Offline
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You may see additive elements (Zn, P, Ca, Mg etc) actually increase over time due to concentration by volatility - as the lighter base oil fractions evaporate they leave behind the additives.

Some of the detergent elements can be caught in the filter - for example CaCO3 (the 'B' in TBN) reacts with sulfuric acid (from combustion of sulfur-containing fuel) and a bit of water to become CaSO4, aka plaster of Paris - this oil-insoluble salt then gathers in the filter, hence removing Ca from the oil. It's a small effect though and may not be noticeable, especially with the volatility effect described above.


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Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: ledslinger] #4343640 03/02/17 11:00 AM
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MolaKule Offline
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Quote:
You may see additive elements (Zn, P, Ca, Mg etc) actually increase over time due to concentration by volatility - as the lighter base oil fractions evaporate they leave behind the additives.


If an additive component contains say an initial 80 ppm of MoDTC, where would the xtra moly come from even if some of the lighter base oil fractions were to evaporate?


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Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: ledslinger] #4343659 03/02/17 11:19 AM
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kschachn Offline
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How are "additive levels" being measured?

An ICP analysis will show the same elements regardless of the ability of any additive to be chemically effective.


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Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: MolaKule] #4343774 03/02/17 02:54 PM
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MotoTribologist Offline
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
You may see additive elements (Zn, P, Ca, Mg etc) actually increase over time due to concentration by volatility - as the lighter base oil fractions evaporate they leave behind the additives.


If an additive component contains say an initial 80 ppm of MoDTC, where would the xtra moly come from even if some of the lighter base oil fractions were to evaporate?

The overall concentration would increase as the diluent (base oil) was lost. If you have 80 ppm MoDTC in a sump containing 5000 grams of oil and say it were 15% volatile. The loss of that 15% would leave you with 4250 grams of oil. With a concentration of 80 ppm, you would have had 4 grams of MoDTC in the original volume. That same 4 grams of MoDTC now in 4250 grams of oil would result in a concentration of 94 ppm.

Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: ledslinger] #4344170 03/02/17 10:00 PM
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MolaKule Offline
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You're assuming a fraction of the 80 ppm MoDTC will not leave with the 15% volume of the oil that was lost.

I don't think conservation of mass supports your theory.


I'm a Student Pilot. Frightening, isn't it?
Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: MotoTribologist] #4344258 03/03/17 12:57 AM
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SonofJoe Offline
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Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
You may see additive elements (Zn, P, Ca, Mg etc) actually increase over time due to concentration by volatility - as the lighter base oil fractions evaporate they leave behind the additives.


If an additive component contains say an initial 80 ppm of MoDTC, where would the xtra moly come from even if some of the lighter base oil fractions were to evaporate?

The overall concentration would increase as the diluent (base oil) was lost. If you have 80 ppm MoDTC in a sump containing 5000 grams of oil and say it were 15% volatile. The loss of that 15% would leave you with 4250 grams of oil. With a concentration of 80 ppm, you would have had 4 grams of MoDTC in the original volume. That same 4 grams of MoDTC now in 4250 grams of oil would result in a concentration of 94 ppm.


You're absolutely 100% correct. I used to see this all the time on the Sequence IIIG and Peugeot TU5, especially on high Noack oils. It used to amaze me how many of my fellow formulators could not get their heads around something that to me was so blinding obvious.

Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: SonofJoe] #4344521 03/03/17 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
You may see additive elements (Zn, P, Ca, Mg etc) actually increase over time due to concentration by volatility - as the lighter base oil fractions evaporate they leave behind the additives.


If an additive component contains say an initial 80 ppm of MoDTC, where would the xtra moly come from even if some of the lighter base oil fractions were to evaporate?

The overall concentration would increase as the diluent (base oil) was lost. If you have 80 ppm MoDTC in a sump containing 5000 grams of oil and say it were 15% volatile. The loss of that 15% would leave you with 4250 grams of oil. With a concentration of 80 ppm, you would have had 4 grams of MoDTC in the original volume. That same 4 grams of MoDTC now in 4250 grams of oil would result in a concentration of 94 ppm.


You're absolutely 100% correct. I used to see this all the time on the Sequence IIIG and Peugeot TU5, especially on high Noack oils. It used to amaze me how many of my fellow formulators could not get their heads around something that to me was so blinding obvious.


Seems just like harvesting salt by letting seawater evaporate...


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Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: MolaKule] #4344631 03/03/17 02:22 PM
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MotoTribologist Offline
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
You're assuming a fraction of the 80 ppm MoDTC will not leave with the 15% volume of the oil that was lost.

I don't think conservation of mass supports your theory.


You are 100% correct in the assumptions made but it was just mena to be a simple answer to your question.

I've never thought about this topic before this time though. Vaporization of the base fluid would likely carry away some of the MoDTC solubilized within as you say. However isn't it also likely that as the oil vaporizes it's decreased density would force a lower concentration of additives in that portion than the liquid portion no?

Maybe I am just thinking myself into circles but that makes sense to me sans any evidence or actual research.

Edit: Plus, conservation of mass assumes a closed system (even if that system is the entire universe in most cases). This question is in regards to the engine oil as the system and it being open to the environment so there can certainly be net changes in mass.

Last edited by MotoTribologist; 03/03/17 02:25 PM.
Re: Engine oil additives little changed during OCI [Re: ledslinger] #4344645 03/03/17 02:34 PM
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kschachn Offline
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Distillation can be unpredictable. Any non-volatile components in the mixture will not appear in the distillate but anything that has a similar boiling point to the hydrocarbon fractions of the oil will carry over. Are the additives liquids or are they solid compounds dissolved in a hydrocarbon carrier? I don't know enough about formulated motor oils to answer that.

Plus it isn't a closed system for more reason than one.


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