How long have FMs been used in motor oil?

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: ndfergy
So am I to assume AW properties of FM's is a canard and its primary, if not sole, purpose is for friction reduction? Or, is your statement semantical where certain FM's are multi-functional providing anti-wear properties?


Quote:
The critical difference between AW/EP additive films and FM films is in their mechanical properties. AW/EP films are semiplastic deposits which are hard to shear off. Thus, under shearing conditions, their coefficient of friction is moderately to high. The exceptions are the organometallic compounds listed above. Friction modification films consist of orderly, close-packed arrays of multimolecular "whiskers," loosely adhering to each other. The outer layers are sheared-off easily, allowing for low coefficient of friction. The phenomena can be described as a deck of plastic coated playing cards lying on the table and sliding off the top card easily.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Where is that BITOG oil history section when you need it?


Ooooh, you reminded me.

Was a big buyer back in the turbine days, and had a dinner with Ingall and the bespoke chemist who worked on UMA/Magnatec.

Got a set of Castrol playing cards, that I transcribed into google docs.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1e7UO8-FoWJA7IkjrJNhIU7COAx42pVp7ioMydKFmw9Y/edit?usp=sharing

1979 for Friction Modified GTX.

 

[ndfergy]

Thanks, I get all that. However, your response to a question within your link, "At various treatment rates and depending on the exact chemistry, MoDTC can be a friction modifer, an AW additive, or an EP additive, or all three", reinforces what I said in the first place.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
FMs and the different types are still confusing to me , for example :
Valvoline VR1 claims to have friction modifiers but has no Moly or Boron
Mobil 1 Racing 4T claims to have no friction modifiers but it has about 80 or so ppm of Moly and some Boron too i think.


The VR1 may be using some of the FMs that don't show up on a VOA since they are chemicals that only have H, C, O, N, Cl, etc. elements.
Boron and moly are elements that do show up on a VOA.

The Racing 4T is surprising if it has 80 ppm moly, since that's fully FM in that concentration, and would compromise shared engine/transmission oil supply. Maybe a mistake in the VOA you saw?

 

[FCD]

Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
FMs and the different types are still confusing to me , for example :
Valvoline VR1 claims to have friction modifiers but has no Moly or Boron
Mobil 1 Racing 4T claims to have no friction modifiers but it has about 80 or so ppm of Moly and some Boron too i think.


The VR1 may be using some of the FMs that don't show up on a VOA since they are chemicals that only have H, C, O, N, Cl, etc. elements.
Boron and moly are elements that do show up on a VOA.

The Racing 4T is surprising if it has 80 ppm moly, since that's fully FM in that concentration, and would compromise shared engine/transmission oil supply. Maybe a mistake in the VOA you saw?


In this UOA you can see it shows 75ppm Moly and 91ppm of Boron
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3074142

 

[TiredTrucker]

Does titanium fall into the same classification as Moly? Been a move by several brands to go with titanium.

 

[FCD]

I have heard of various compounds of Moly, Boron ,Calcium etc being used as Friction modifiers, there's also talk about Liquid titanium replacing Zddp in the future as an antiwear additive.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
I have heard of various compounds of Moly, Boron ,Calcium etc being used as Friction modifiers, there's also talk about Liquid titanium replacing Zddp in the future as an antiwear additive.


Titanium is AW and FM. It was patented 13 years ago, and has appeared in Mobil conventional motor oil (their cheap oil), and currently appears in the heaviest amounts in Kendall GT-1 oil (100 ppm), and in lesser amounts in Castrol Edge.

I don't know why boron, Ti, polymer esters, and moly haven't entirely replaced ZDDP already in 2017, but that still hasn't happened completely. The SN limit for phosphorous (from ZDDP) is 800 ppm, and most oils still have 600-800 ppm P to pollute catalysts.
Fuchs is the only oil I've seen that has a fully formulated oil using NO zddp. European oil only.

I haven't seen Boron touted as being FM much. Just AW and anti-deposit.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: ndfergy
Thanks, I get all that. However, your response to a question within your link, "At various treatment rates and depending on the exact chemistry, MoDTC can be a friction modifer, an AW additive, or an EP additive, or all three", reinforces what I said in the first place.


I think I see your question now. It was the "multi-functional" part I wasn't clear about.

Certain FM's, depending on the level of treatment, can act as both an FM or AW, such as the molybdenum dithiocarbamates.

The term "multi-functional" is generally used for a specific chemical compound that can provide many functions at one treatment level.


One could replace the multi-function AW/anti-oxidant ZDDP with the new Akzo Nobel ester polymers, such as used in the Fuch's series, but cost of those polymers are about 3-5X the cost of good ole ZDDP esters.

 

[ndfergy]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: ndfergy
Thanks, I get all that. However, your response to a question within your link, "At various treatment rates and depending on the exact chemistry, MoDTC can be a friction modifer, an AW additive, or an EP additive, or all three", reinforces what I said in the first place.


I think I see your question now. It was the "multi-functional" part I wasn't clear about.

Certain FM's, depending on the level of treatment, can act as both an FM or AW, such as the molybdenum dithiocarbamates.

The term "multi-functional" is generally used for a specific chemical compound that can provide many functions at one treatment level.


One could replace the multi-function AW/anti-oxidant ZDDP with the new Akzo Nobel ester polymers, such as used in the Fuch's series, but cost of those polymers are about 3-5X the cost of good ole ZDDP esters.


Thanks. I get too wordy sometimes. Blame it on my British background.

Have a nice day!

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: ndfergy


Thanks. I get too wordy sometimes. Blame it on my British background.

Have a nice day!


Our northern neighbors are awesome people.