6.7 PSD why is 10W30 not approved for trailer tow

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: dustyroads
If I'm not mistaken, I think 2015PSD saw some pretty high oil temps running out west with his PSD.
Yep, 240 degrees in Arizona, California, and Nevada with a light load.
Wow-that's pretty high! I wonder if a full synthetic 15W40 (like Royal Purple or Amsoil) might be a good idea if towing in 100F or above temps-or maybe an extra oil cooler.

 

[dnewton3]

I'd like to ask Ford for their proof that a 40 grade is warranted.
Let's see the proof; show me the disparity in actual wear rates between the 30 grade and 40 grade.
Is 5w-40 "necessary" to avoid metal-to-metal conflict? I highly doubt it.

As we all know, it's a matter of perspective.

Am I supposed to believe that a 5w-40 is "better" for towing and severe duty? What KIND of 5w-40? A group III? A group IV? We all know that some of the 5w-40 products shear quickly down to a 30 grade anyway. Would a 10w-30 PAO be "better" than a quasi-syn 5w-40?

And unless I have missed an update, it's not "required" to run the 5w-40. It's "recommended". The only "requirement" is a lube that meets Ford's spec for HDEO, which just about every decent CJ-4 does (sticking to the topic of the year of this OPs truck and excluding the CK topic).

The OP should do as he sees fit, but I for one see ZERO proof that this is necessary and that 10w-30 would not handle the tasks at hand.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: dustyroads
If I'm not mistaken, I think 2015PSD saw some pretty high oil temps running out west with his PSD.
Yep, 240 degrees in Arizona, California, and Nevada with a light load.
Wow-that's pretty high! I wonder if a full synthetic 15W40 (like Royal Purple or Amsoil) might be a good idea if towing in 100F or above temps-or maybe an extra oil cooler.
If I know that I am going to be towing or exposed to those temperatures, I simply run 5W-40 synthetic--easier to find (at least in my neck of the woods) than a 15W-40 synthetic.

 

[roadrunner1]

I would be very curious to see oil temp differences between a 5w-40 & 10w-30 in extreme high temp conditions. My guess is that a 10w-30 should run cooler by at least 5f. In all that I've done with my 6.7 I haven't experienced anything above 215f oil temp, which is only 3f above where oil is rated (cST 100C).
As I stated I don't have mountains here, but I have been loaded down in the bed(4,000 lbs.+) and towing a 12,000 gvw trailer loaded along with 4 guys in the cab in 90f+ summer temps and run 145 mi. back home down the highway at 65-70 mph to achieve the 215f as I generally see 201f-205f.
I do have a 3.31 rear end which puts me at roughly 1,550 rpm at 70 mph, but UOA data doesn't suggest that my lower rpm's are affecting engine wear in high weight/low rpm conditions using 10w-30.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
I would be very curious to see oil temp differences between a 5w-40 & 10w-30 in extreme high temp conditions. My guess is that a 10w-30 should run cooler by at least 5f. In all that I've done with my 6.7 I haven't experienced anything above 215f oil temp, which is only 3f above where oil is rated (cST 100C). As I stated I don't have mountains here, but I have been loaded down in the bed(4,000 lbs.+) and towing a 12,000 gvw trailer loaded along with 4 guys in the cab in 90f+ summer temps and run 145 mi. back home down the highway at 65-70 mph to achieve the 215f as I generally see 201f-205f.
I do have a 3.31 rear end which puts me at roughly 1,550 rpm at 70 mph, but UOA data doesn't suggest that my lower rpm's are affecting engine wear in high weight/low rpm conditions using 10w-30.
Not sure; my "normal" temps are right where yours are, but as noted in other posts, I have also seen 240°F and I (just me speaking for me) would not use anything other than a synthetic and an xW-40 at those temps.

 

[roadrunner1]

Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
I would be very curious to see oil temp differences between a 5w-40 & 10w-30 in extreme high temp conditions. My guess is that a 10w-30 should run cooler by at least 5f. In all that I've done with my 6.7 I haven't experienced anything above 215f oil temp, which is only 3f above where oil is rated (cST 100C). As I stated I don't have mountains here, but I have been loaded down in the bed(4,000 lbs.+) and towing a 12,000 gvw trailer loaded along with 4 guys in the cab in 90f+ summer temps and run 145 mi. back home down the highway at 65-70 mph to achieve the 215f as I generally see 201f-205f.
I do have a 3.31 rear end which puts me at roughly 1,550 rpm at 70 mph, but UOA data doesn't suggest that my lower rpm's are affecting engine wear in high weight/low rpm conditions using 10w-30.
Not sure; my "normal" temps are right where yours are, but as noted in other posts, I have also seen 240°F and I (just me speaking for me) would not use anything other than a synthetic and an xW-40 at those temps.


"Those Temps" as you put them are no where near a dangerous temp for any CJ-4/CK-4 oil.

 

[mbacfp]

Interesting...going 70 mph I am just below 2,000 rpms...maybe a little more while towing. I believe I have the highest gears. Is Ford's stance on the 40 wt for severe service really based on engine testing or old school (if you will) beliefs?

 

[roadrunner1]

Originally Posted By: mbacfp
Interesting...going 70 mph I am just below 2,000 rpms...maybe a little more while towing. I believe I have the highest gears. Is Ford's stance on the 40 wt for severe service really based on engine testing or old school (if you will) beliefs?


Before this platform was released it literally went through the ringer, as all new designs are, but the 6.7 was under such scrutiny because of the 6.0/6.4 problems it had to be right as the #1 selling truck in America was riding on it. I don't know what the recommendation is based on as I have stated numerous times I haven't seen any issues with 10w-30.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
I would be very curious to see oil temp differences between a 5w-40 & 10w-30 in extreme high temp conditions. My guess is that a 10w-30 should run cooler by at least 5f. In all that I've done with my 6.7 I haven't experienced anything above 215f oil temp, which is only 3f above where oil is rated (cST 100C). As I stated I don't have mountains here, but I have been loaded down in the bed(4,000 lbs.+) and towing a 12,000 gvw trailer loaded along with 4 guys in the cab in 90f+ summer temps and run 145 mi. back home down the highway at 65-70 mph to achieve the 215f as I generally see 201f-205f.
I do have a 3.31 rear end which puts me at roughly 1,550 rpm at 70 mph, but UOA data doesn't suggest that my lower rpm's are affecting engine wear in high weight/low rpm conditions using 10w-30.
Not sure; my "normal" temps are right where yours are, but as noted in other posts, I have also seen 240°F and I (just me speaking for me) would not use anything other than a synthetic and an xW-40 at those temps.
"Those Temps" as you put them are no where near a dangerous temp for any CJ-4/CK-4 oil.
I went back and looked at my post regarding the temperatures and I hit 249°F at the highest. I sent an inquiries to all of the majors (Chevron, Mobil, Phillips, and Shell) and Mobil, Phillips, and Shell (Chevron did not say much of anything as per usual with their responses) all recommended synthetics for those operating temperatures. Mobil stated "those temps" are at the limit for conventional oils. Would the engine self destruct? Of course not, but the life of the oil can be exponentially reduced when operating at those temps. We went through all of this in June of 2016 and I am still confident with my choices. However, to each or her own...

 

[mbacfp]

After going back and forth (trying to learn from everyone)...I ultimately agree with 2015_PSD. My application is always running at 16,000+ and flat towing a 5,000. My internal bias has been towards 5w40 or 15w40 especially in my application. Have a another UOA report coming in February...so hoping my Iron comes down as it continues to break in. Excited to see my UOA on Mobil Delvac 5w40.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Well, if 249F is the limit for conventional HDEO oils, then we should be seeing a line of broke down semi trucks all across the nation. The vast majority of heavy trucks are using conventional oils. Including those doing heavy haul that pull gross weights exceeding 300,000 lb in places like AZ and such. With the emissions stuff on them just like the pickups, they are hitting some pretty high temps when pulling heavy loads on tough grades. They are not loosing turbos right and left or experiencing spun bearings at any accelerated rate. Delvac 1300 Super, Rotella T3, and Delo 400 are the leading oils, by far, in use in commercial trucks. All conventional oils.

 

[dustyroads]

Originally Posted By: mbacfp
After going back and forth (trying to learn from everyone)...I ultimately agree with 2015_PSD. My application is always running at 16,000+ and flat towing a 5,000. My internal bias has been towards 5w40 or 15w40 especially in my application. Have a another UOA report coming in February...so hoping my Iron comes down as it continues to break in. Excited to see my UOA on Mobil Delvac 5w40.


I know that you have taken advantage of the NAPA sales and combined with the Mobil rebates, you got the D1 ESP for an amazing price. You have nothing to worry about, bud!

The good things about the 5W40, is that it has an HTHS between the 10W30 and 15W40. That gives you a little more minimum oil film thickness (compared to 10W30) and yet runs a little bit cooler in the bearings than a 15W40. That gives you a good overall package.

 

[dnewton3]

Again, we need to add some perspective here.

First of all, 250F is NOT a dangerous temp for conventional lubes; especially not today's well-crafted lubes. Ever hear of the (in)famous GM filter test? Often cited here, albeit with little-to-no understanding of the parameters it was conducted with. Did you know that GM purposely held the sump temps for those tests at 250F? That's right, the target temp for the filter testing was 250F at the sump, and for 8 sustained hours! And that was back in the 1980s. If 250F is so dastardly, then why use such a litmus test for the filters? In fact, some SAE studies and ASTM tests actually call for temps anywhere from 230F to 250F as the standard.

I certainly agree, cooler is better, but only in context. I WANT my fluids to be anywhere from 200F to 250F in operation. Keeps them in the proper vis range and also promotes the expulsion of moisture. Today's HDEOs are NOT going to self-destruct at 250F, especially given that most of these conditions we speak about are not sustained over long hours, but only a temporary experience for minutes or less. The greatest risk is oxidation from extreme temps over long periods of time. Your oil will not coke to a sludgy death after a few minutes at 250F or so. If my oil temps hit 250F for a brief moment, I'd not even think twice about it; there is nothing to fear. And don't forget that some amount of oxidation is a good thing; promotes the TCB formation on surfaces as a protective layer. I agree that excessive oxidation is bad, but not all oxidation is bad. That must be kept in context of the OCI duration, filtration, etc.


For the OP and others, why not contribute to the foundation of knowledge here? Don't just guess; go out and try! Run a sump of a decent 10w-30 under the "severe" conditions. Then do it again with a 5w-40. Make the tests as practically similar as possible. Record your data (temps, loads, ambient conditions, etc) and get UOAs. Don't get hung up on the label of the bottle. Test the stuff, then test alternatives, then judge with open eyes. For those of us who've actually done it, we're convinced that the purported disparity never materializes. I agree that there's nothing "wrong" with running a more expensive lube, if you can overlook the waste of cash. But I seriously question that it's "better" by any practical measure in real world results, despite what Ford implies.

 

[TiredTrucker]

It took me running 10w30 in a legacy Detroit 60 12.7 for a few OCI's to see that it would hold up and actually do quite well under the same operating conditions. And the engine already had over 500,000 miles on it. All along, the Detroit Lube manual had stated that 10w30 with minimum 3.5 HTHS was adequate with no hint that a 40w was required for extremely high ambient temps and demanding working conditions. I, as many others, was stuck in the thicker is better mindset out of years of habit. dnewton3 is spot on in his analysis of the issue. I know many folks who are using 10w30 in their diesels, pickup variety on up with emissions junk, and have never been concerned or is their any indication they should be. Many of them have now racked up 300,000 miles plus on 10w30. Yes, even the pickup guys who have been towing RV's from factory to dealerships nationwide.

 

[mbacfp]

Thanks to all again. I appreciate the real world experiences you all share. Good to see you again dnewton3, always enjoy reading your posts past and present. I actually stopping thinking about 10w-30 vs 5w-40 since I stocked up on 5w-40 for super cheap. However, I am interested in running 10w-30 and sharing my findings via UOAs. Roadrunner1, I appreciate you sharing your UOAs on your truck since new...I occasionally compare and hope my engine is breaking in as nice as yours is. Take care all.

 

[dustyroads]

TiredTrucker, I'm right there with you regarding the 10W30 in our heavy-duty engines. When I had a few Volvos, I saw fantastic results when I switched from 15W40. The one with a high torque/low rpm engine did show a few more PPM of lead when I switched to 10W30, but nothing to worry about. That engine was programmed to maintain oil temps in the 240's full time (when loaded) and still did great with the lighter grade oil. The 30 grade also ran cooler, taking longer to heat up to where the oil cooler kicked in to drop the temp several degrees. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, heavy-duty engines also have extra large bearings and lower power density.

Since I don't have a lick of experience driving a modern day pickup with the crazy power they have in small displacements, I would have to try both a 30 and 40 grade and see how each did. I'd only be concerned if running heavy in the western states and using that power for the extra long grades. In the midwest, that power isn't going to be used much regardless of what is towed. Although there is plenty of wind to make the engine work if pulling a big trailer.

 

[DoubleWasp]

A lot of people are asking the question, "Why not 10w-30?"

The one I ask is "Why 10w-30?"

Other than cold weather performance and fuel savings I would need a scientific calculator to appreciate, what is there to be gained?

15w-40 is not giving me any problems at all.

 

[mbacfp]

Is there anything to gain with 10w-30 other than fuel savings, etc,?

 

[mbacfp]

Will 10w-30 run the engine cooler?

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
A lot of people are asking the question, "Why not 10w-30?"

The one I ask is "Why 10w-30?"

Other than cold weather performance and fuel savings I would need a scientific calculator to appreciate, what is there to be gained?

15w-40 is not giving me any problems at all.



The big OEMs and operators are seeing the benefit in fuel economy; that's their logic. I use it just to prove it's viable. I probably do save money, but admittedly it's micro-incremental to me at times.

You're realizing my point. It's not that either 10w-30 or 15w-40 0r 5w-40 is superior/inferior to another. They all seem to do about the same in terms of real world protection. Which is why I call Ford's recommendation regarding severe service into question. They have their reasons; I just don't buy into them.

The savings in fuel economy may or may not offset a cost of syn. Depends upon how much you drive annually, as well as which "syn" you choose, as there is a BIG disparity in all the brand pricing.

Keeping in mind the OPs quest here, the 2015 6.7L he has has shown to do very well with any of the CJ-4 lubes. That's not uncommon for most all of today's light-duty diesels. Even heavy OTR and Off-Road equipment do well on most lubes.

I don't understand why the OEMs place such a significant emphasis on making these recommendations. I don't see any proof in real world data that would justify the commotion they create. For years, Kubota was stuck on recommending CH-4 lubes, even when CJ-4 was out. But once they had to include the mandated DPF equipment on there stuff, suddenly CJ-4 lubes were approved, for obvious reasons. Let's not pretend that corporations don't get stuck in a mental rut, too.

Ford recommends 15w-40 or 5w-40 for "severe" service. But just about anything you'd use a truck for become "severe" by their definition. And yet, if you believe every TV commercial, these trucks (as well as GM and Ram) are the biggest, baddest hombre's on the planet. And I believe that these vehicles are really quite amazing in their capabilities today. But I've seen no evidence that using a truck as a truck (big loads, temp extremes, etc) ever manifests into any wear rate changes. Why call something "severe" that is totally expected in the manner that you design the product for use? Kind of self-defeating, is it not?


In all my experiments with 10w-30, I never have been able to prove that it's superior to thicker lubes. But then again, that wasn't my point. My experiments were to show that 10w-30 is every bit as capable as a thicker lube. And to that end, I've proven it in spades for my applications. Others, like TT and RR1, have also seen similar results.

I wholly agree that there are times when a syn makes sense. But that's typically super-extended OCIs, or uber-silly cold temps. Other than those circumstances, I've not seen any credible evidence that "severe" is nearly as severe as the OEM thinks, or that paying more gets you more in terms of wear control.
Choices:
dino thin
dino thick
syn thin
syn thick
Pick your poison; I see no difference in real world use. Each will do well.

I choose by this mantra -
First and foremost, product "XYZ" must protect well for the duration I define, in the environments I except to operate, enduring the loads I place upon it. I test and test again, assuring these criteria are met. Once that is assured, I then let my wallet pick.