Are thinner oils damaging MB Bluetec engines?

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I have a 2012 Mercedes Benz GL 350 that suffered a timing chain failure at 63k. Fortunately it was covered under the CPO warranty. My friend with the same model waited too long to address the start up clatter and wiped out the engine...again fortunately under CPO warranty. I have read a number of other post indicating similar issues with premature timing chain wear on the Bluetec 3.0 V-6 diesel engine. Incidentally I had no such failures on our 07 GL 350 with 160k miles on it.

Is it possible that extended OCI combined with the move from 229.5 to 229.51 for the DPF equipped Bluetec can be contributing to these failures? This spec change dropped Zn from 1100 PPM to 900 PPM, HTHS from 3.7 to 3.6, phosphorus from 1000 PPM to 800 PPM, and sulfated ash from 900 PPM to 600 PPM. We could get a decent 5W40 and 5W30 in 229.5 and 229.51 until recently when is was all superseded by the 0W30.

Will 229.52 with even lower typical TBN, HTHS and vicosity (for the dealer used Mobil 1 ESP 0W30) be even more harmful? Mobil 1 does not list a flash point for the ESP 0W30, the SDS just states "Greater that 200"...the 5W30 was 254!

I am concerned that these aspects plus the higher and higher operating temperatures to gain fuel economy and reduced emissions are having a detrimental effect on our engine life.

I have found a Lucas 229.52 rated oil in a 10W60 weight (which is listed in the owner's manual as acceptable) that I am intrigued with based on the fact that I tow, have extended city driving and considerable hot weather driving. Any experience with this oil?

Am I just being paranoid?

I just bought a CPO 2014 GL 350 and want to get off on the right foot with this one and plan to put several hundred thousand miles on it.
 
Sounds more like a engineering failure. The 2.2 engine of Chevy has a poor timing chain tension system and starts to fail close to 150k. Sore subject as I had check engine light come on dealer could not figure it out and then the warranty was up too. They have a upgrade and MB probably will have to figure out the problem too.
 
look at all the GM timing chain issues due to extended oci. (equinox, Cadillac etc)

I think you could make a case for all of the above perhaps contributing.
along with the actual engine design/engineering

How is DI and fuel dilution on those motors?

The GM fix? reducing the OCI.. well and replacing with updated parts.
 
I run about 120 Sprinters with the 3.0L Diesel 2011 - 2013. I spec OEM spec oil 229.51/52 and OEM oil filters.
They have up to 175,000 miles on them. We use a 12,000 mile OCI and are beat on in a commercial application.
Haven't had any timing chain failures.

Moved away from buying more as they become a money pit after warranty.
Ford Transit DRW chassis with the 3.2L Powerstroke is current spec.
 
Busted timing chain on a MB with 63k miles? Extened drain interval or not I'd be extremely disappointed.
 
Very interesting. Do you mind sharing the brand and viscosity of the oil you are using in your Sprinters?

And just to confirm, these would be Bluetec engines with DPF and DEF, correct?

Thanks
 
Sorry, new to forum. My question on brand and viscosity of oil was for Danno with the fleet of 120 Sprinters. Thanks
 
Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
Originally Posted By: CT8
Could it be the extended oil change intervals?


Totally possible, since soot is abrasive.


VW 2.0 CR TDI's aren't wearing our prematurely with absrasive soot in their Castrol SLX Gold 5w30. Even though they have a timing belt, they're still doing 10k intervals factory with no oil related issues on "thin" oil.

Sounds like an engineering issue more than oil. Lot's of German made diesels sold in the US have issues but oil rarely is the straw that breaks the camel's back. (HPFP, DPF, EGR, etc etc etc.)
 
Engineering issue. Nothing to do with HTHS and MB229.51 spec.
Maybe extended OCi, lot's of city driving.
I do in X5 35d 5K OCI using M1 5W30 ESP in colder months and Valvoline 5W40 MST in warmer months. I think once I use all Valvoline I am just going to stick to M1.
Also, I drive my car like I stole it and runs great.
 
Hello:

Mercedes Benz has long had a problem with timing chains and gears. Our 2006 C-class was part of an era with these issues. In the C-class case, it had nothing to so with oil. Take a close look at the picture. The teeth on the gear are nearly worn off because the gear was improperly engineered. Our Mercedes (bought new and meticulously maintained) was one of the worst vehicles I've ever owned. It was a total POS and had many serious flaws.

Scott

http://www.mercedesmedic.com/check-my-mercedes-benz-for-balance-shaft-issue-by-vin-m272273/
 
Originally Posted By: Tomcat728
Sorry, new to forum. My question on brand and viscosity of oil was for Danno with the fleet of 120 Sprinters. Thanks

Sorry, had to double check my spec sheet for PMs.

All I spec is 229.51 spec oil and OEM filter. I don't get more complicated than that.
 
OK, thanks. I'm still puzzled that the OM642 3.0 engine in the Sprinter with the DPF and DEF appears to be so much more reliable than the same engine with DPF and DEF in our Mercedes GL 350's. From what I can tell they are the same engine, is that correct?

I really like the GL and want to minimize the issues I have. We may have more cold starts and short trips than a non commercial vehicle, is that enough to explain the difference? Maybe we just don't drive them hard enough??

So I'm going to stick with the 229.51 oil (its a 2014 so that is OK) and OEM spec filters (Mann). I will likely add a DPF cleaner at oil changes and reduce my OCI to 5000 -6000 miles. I may do the BG 109 engine flush at my first oil change (just over 40,000 on the one I am buying) to clear out any sludge that may have built up in the first years with the 10,000 miles OCI. I may sneak in the BG Oil Conditioner. And I'm going to change the air filters every 20,000. Finally, I'm going to start getting Blackstone oil analysis to have real data.

We depend on our GL for business purposes and put on about 30,000 miles a year. While not as critical as the Sprinter duty, its a big deal to us and I need it ti be as reliable as possible.
 
EdyVW- I can no longer find the Mobil 1 5W30 ESP from my regular sources, I am told it has been superseded with the Mobil 1 0W30 ESP with the 229.52 rating. The 0W30 seems to be the new "house" oil at the MB dealerships.

I'm leaning towards just using the Valvoline MST 5W40 year round, that 0W30 makes me nervous given I spend half the year in hot climates and do a fair amount to towing.
 
I'd agree that MB have timing chaln/sprocket problems on several engines, petrol as well as diesel including the 4 Cyl M271 and M276 V6. If you want blame something I'd vote for the use of simplex timing chains in the quest for reduced frictional losses. Later engines are using an inverted tooth chain which can be very durable but we'll have to wait and see.

Given it is [censored] engineering rather than an oil problem, it still doesn't seem to impact on every single car just a lot of them. So what's the best oil to try and keep problems at bay. The specs call for 0W30, 5W30, 0W40 or 5W40.

I'm running an M271 on 229.5 5W40
 
We have a 12 E350 bluetec that comes to us with terrible startup rattle. He's only in the neighborhood of 70k or so, and said he was going to the dealer for oil until 50k, then to another shop near him. I did notice a 15/40 grade oil noted on the sticker, no way that was spec, but I doubt that was the cause of it.
 
Here's my 2 cents. I have an 08 ML320 with the 642 diesel pre Blue additive. It requires 229.51 low saps oil. The only wgt that was ever available was 5-40. Then 5-30(229.52) was recommended strictly for café purposes I believe. I bought a bunch of Mobil 1 5-40 developed for MB when I heard they were going to quit making it. I have 1 oc left. I will switch to Valvoline 5-40 MST. Even though a 10k oci is recommended< I went 9k and sent a sample of the 5-40 for analysis. Iron was 60 and TBN was 2. I'm not comfortable with these numbers so I have gone to a 5-6k OIC. I believe that the 0/5-30 will allow excess wear. It's all about CAFE numbers for the manufacturers.
BTW. The local indy MB shop says 5-6k max OIC. He is an old guy who worked for MB for years and was their investigator for lawsuits that tried to blame MB for accidents etc. Go 10k with 0-30 at your own risks. The average MB owner doesn't keep their cars very long like a lot of us.
 
Originally Posted By: loneryder
Here's my 2 cents. I have an 08 ML320 with the 642 diesel pre Blue additive. It requires 229.51 low saps oil. The only wgt that was ever available was 5-40. Then 5-30(229.52) was recommended strictly for café purposes I believe. I bought a bunch of Mobil 1 5-40 developed for MB when I heard they were going to quit making it. I have 1 oc left. I will switch to Valvoline 5-40 MST. Even though a 10k oci is recommended< I went 9k and sent a sample of the 5-40 for analysis. Iron was 60 and TBN was 2. I'm not comfortable with these numbers so I have gone to a 5-6k OIC. I believe that the 0/5-30 will allow excess wear. It's all about CAFE numbers for the manufacturers.
BTW. The local indy MB shop says 5-6k max OIC. He is an old guy who worked for MB for years and was their investigator for lawsuits that tried to blame MB for accidents etc. Go 10k with 0-30 at your own risks. The average MB owner doesn't keep their cars very long like a lot of us.

SO I use M1 5W30 ESP and got 24qt of Valvoline 5W40 MST on sale (use in sumemr).
Here is why 5W30 or 5W40 does not matter.
1. M1 5W30 ESP has cst of 12.2, while V 5W40 MST has 13.1. DO you really think that is big difference?
Also, more importantly, HTHS of M1 s 3.58cp, while V is 3.7. Not really significant difference. For example HTHS of M1 0W40 FS is 3.6.
2. This is why this 5W30 or 5W40 is irrelevant. In winter, my oil temp. on BMW is around 70 to 88c if I push. Cst is measured at 100c. So, actually for lubrication purposes in winter, 5W30 is better option. Most of the wear comes from cold starts and short trips, not minimal differences in oil thickness.
One thing is for sure, Valvoline is smoother then M1, but that is generally M1 deal, even in heavier oils.
I noticed one other thing that I am still monitoring.
When I was running Valvoline, my DPF regeneration cycle was approx. every 250-280km (I monitor that thru Carly). Since I switched to M1 it is every 470- 510km. M1 has SA level of 0.6, Valvoline of 0.79, and higher NOACK.
Still cannot pin point that that is 100% oil. I am switching between Shell, Conoco, Philips 66 to rule out diesel fuel as cause less frequent DPF regen. But next OCI I will use Valvoline again and check. I monitor all the time parameters.
 
Originally Posted By: Tomcat728
Is it possible that extended OCI combined with the move from 229.5 to 229.51 for the DPF equipped Bluetec can be contributing to these failures?


It's more-likely that Mercedes lacks V6 experience.
These cars used to be equipped with Inline-6s which were perfectly balanced (and won "best engine" awards). Now suddenly they have V6s that shake & vibrate. The engineers failed to account for things they are not used to, and that led to engine faults.

BTW they used to recommend 5W-40 on their I-6s. It might be worthwhile to return to the old standard, to gain extra protection.
 
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