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Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: MolaKule] #4254853 11/21/16 11:37 PM
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MarcS Offline OP
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Is that initial 2oz per quart meant to be an idle flush or run for an entire oil change?

Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: MarcS] #4254895 11/22/16 01:41 AM
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MolaKule Offline
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Originally Posted By: MarcS
Is that initial 2oz per quart meant to be an idle flush or run for an entire oil change?


You can run it for entire oil change.

LC20 has various cleaners and additional AW, rust inhibitors, and metal de-activator additives.


Last edited by MolaKule; 11/22/16 01:43 AM.

The value of a scientific theory is its ability to prompt further study, not that it has any relation to the established facts of scientific reality.
Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: MarcS] #4255037 11/22/16 09:26 AM
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Thanks for your help. Ordered some LC and stocked up on cheap filters and cheap bulk chevron 5w30. Ready for some rapid-fire 1-2k mile oil changes. Should go pretty rapidly as i put on a lot of miles with sales calls each week. I'll post updates.

Last edited by MarcS; 11/22/16 09:28 AM.
Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: MarcS] #4259306 11/27/16 01:44 PM
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Quick question on what I should expect with this concoction. I've had 12oz of LC20 in with the latest fill (whatever conventional the dealership used after completing repairs) for about 300 miles so far, which was a few local trips and a ~200 mile highway run. You could smell the LC20 on the dipstick strongly for about the first 150 miles or so then whatever that pleasant smell is apparently flashed off. The oil has not darkened appreciably but this was described as a slow cleaner, so I'm not sure if that is to be expected.

At 1000 miles, I'm going to replace the filter and cut the used one open for inspection. By that point, should the oil be changed or should I just add another few oz of LC20 and run another 1k? Better to base that decision on the color of the oil at the time and how much crud I find in the filter? Given that 5qts of chevron and a filter runs me about $16, it's not a cost issue, just want to make sure I'm using everything correctly and to its full potential

Last edited by MarcS; 11/27/16 01:57 PM.
Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: MarcS] #4259788 11/28/16 12:47 AM
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Interesting to see how the LC20 does.

Cutting your filter will give you a good idea what if anything is migrating and how much of it.

Delvac 1300 diesel engine oil has more dispersants and detergents than most all oils formulated for gasoline engines.

It'll clean up nasty stuff pretty quick.

UD


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Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: MarcS] #4263358 12/01/16 10:53 PM
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MolaKule Offline
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Originally Posted By: MarcS
Quick question on what I should expect with this concoction. I've had 12oz of LC20 in with the latest fill (whatever conventional the dealership used after completing repairs) for about 300 miles so far, which was a few local trips and a ~200 mile highway run. You could smell the LC20 on the dipstick strongly for about the first 150 miles or so then whatever that pleasant smell is apparently flashed off. The oil has not darkened appreciably but this was described as a slow cleaner, so I'm not sure if that is to be expected.

At 1000 miles, I'm going to replace the filter and cut the used one open for inspection. By that point, should the oil be changed or should I just add another few oz of LC20 and run another 1k? Better to base that decision on the color of the oil at the time and how much crud I find in the filter? Given that 5qts of chevron and a filter runs me about $16, it's not a cost issue, just want to make sure I'm using everything correctly and to its full potential


I would just top it off with the Chevron.

As to what to expect? A slow cleaning so don't expect an overnight miracle.


The value of a scientific theory is its ability to prompt further study, not that it has any relation to the established facts of scientific reality.
Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: MarcS] #4273988 12/13/16 06:17 PM
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I don't have pictures for the update, but I just did 1100 miles since adding the LC20. I removed the filter (Nissan factory filter) and cut it open. The filter didn't look too bad. Wasn't loaded with sludge or anything, but there were definitely tiny flecks of black carbon in the pleats. The plan was to just throw on a new filter, but the oil that drained when i pulled the filter was pretty opaque, so I drained it as well. Put on a new filter, added some fresh Chevron 5w30 and another dose of LC20. Will change and check the filter again in another 1000 miles. If that one looks the same or better, i'll probably extend the interval slightly.

Last edited by MarcS; 12/13/16 06:23 PM.
Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: MarcS] #4273995 12/13/16 06:26 PM
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It might be a good idea to read the instructions on the LC20 web site, as they say it should be added during the OCI, which is very different to other additives.




Last edited by UltrafanUK; 12/13/16 06:28 PM.
Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: MarcS] #4274003 12/13/16 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: MarcS
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Originally Posted By: vitez
I've used Amsoil Engine and Transmission flush in the last 5 used vehicles I've bought and never had any engine issues.

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/ot...?code=FLSHCN-EA

If your engine still exhibits some sludge after 25K of M1, I would do an engine flush. The Amsoil product is a detergent, not a solvent, and extremely unlikely to break off big chunks of anything. Besides, by your description you don't have big chunks of anything anyway!


I agree, using a flush designed for use at idle would get the block clean far faster than just doing short OCI's with a good cleaner oil.


Just concerned something like that will send any remaining sludge right back into the problem areas that were just cleaned or replaced. Most of them have warnings abot using on heavily slidged engines and I dont know what they consider "heavily sludged"


The only warning from Liqui Moly is for the use of their drive around flush, not their idle use ones. It just recommends that you clean the sump and oil pump intake before use and keep the revs low.

If removing the sump is difficult, a lot of Indy garages just rinse the block through with diesel before using an idle flush. In a bad case like yours it is worth doing a double flush.

If you have an oil leaks, changing to a high detergent full synthetic or using an idle flush can make oil leaks worse, as the sludge and varnish can help old worn or split oil seals or gaskets work (It's called the false oil seal effect). In a bad case it might be best to use an HM oil or even some stop leak as a precaution after flushing.

Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: UltrafanUK] #4274038 12/13/16 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
It might be a good idea to read the instructions on the LC20 web site, as they say it should be added during the OCI, which is very different to other additives.


The instructions call for a large initial dose then adding a couple ounces every 1k, which is pretty much the instructions molakule gave me above...

Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: UltrafanUK] #4274045 12/13/16 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
The only warning from Liqui Moly is for the use of their drive around flush, not their idle use ones. It just recommends that you clean the sump and oil pump intake before use and keep the revs low.

If removing the sump is difficult, a lot of Indy garages just rinse the block through with diesel before using an idle flush. In a bad case like yours it is worth doing a double flush.

If you have an oil leaks, changing to a high detergent full synthetic or using an idle flush can make oil leaks worse, as the sludge and varnish can help old worn or split oil seals or gaskets work (It's called the false oil seal effect). In a bad case it might be best to use an HM oil or even some stop leak as a precaution after flushing.


As i mentioned in the initial post, the pan was dropped and cleaned out during the service. What is a 15 minute oil flush going to clean out that the prescribed LC20 isn't going to remove over the next couple thousand miles? Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just not in a rush and would prefer to play it safe.

Last edited by MarcS; 12/13/16 07:31 PM.
Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: MarcS] #4274122 12/13/16 08:32 PM
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Thought on cleaning the ring packs up to further reduce oil consumption....

It is a myth that transmission fluid has more detergent in it that oil. why would anyone think that?
Transmissions are a closed system with nothing coming in to contaminate !!

Diesel oil has a lot of detergent.

You wanna clean your engine out the safe way.? run a light weight oil like castrol edge high mileage 0w20 or 5w20.

Run it for around 500-1500 miles. then change it for whatever you like. castrol edge is the best though.

If you want to use a safe potion try >>stp gumout multi engine<< or seafoam multi engine treatment in your oil for 1500 miles.

When you have room add 8 to 10 oz.

when it gets dirty change it. Please remember no oil in the world will ever handle acid build up beyond 7500 miles.

Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: MarcS] #4274341 12/14/16 03:51 AM
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Using an idle flush or LC20 are just 2 different ways of cleaning the block, but why complicate things by using a product that has to be added in steps after an intial dose during the OCI.
I had a good look at LC20 and it does seem to be a better version of MMO, as it contains AW additives.

I know a lot of folks that are involved in either oversight or insurance of various Iffylubes in Germany and the UK and none of those companies will allow the use of drive around flush additives due to warranty concerns, as those products have no form of approval and or are not made to any defined standard in terms of additional wear or QA matters (That means the manufacturer can change the mix at will).

Using an idle flush is allowed because it is regarded as a maintenance technique, so if a car has a used car extended warranty it will not be invalidated, although it has to be a listed product and in the EU only Castrol and Liqui Moly make idle flushes that can be used by such Iffylubes. The LM one can even be used by a VW dealer, although they tend to prefer sump off cleans and some use a VW flushing rig that circulates a strong solvent around the block using its own filter and pump. It can also be used to clean an auto transmission out.

The main beef I have about cheap drive around flushes like MMO is that they thin the oil at least one grade and if you do that in an engine that is already using a thin oil like an Xw20, or the engine is causing fuel contamination that is enough to thin the oil, it's bad news, even before you consider the risks of blocking the filter, oil pump intake or an oil feed line to a turbo in particular. The risk to a turbo from thin oil, debris and compromised AW layer (The solvents and detergents in the additive do tend to erode that layer, as do high detergent oils for around the first 1K miles of use) is significant.
Also I've know of a number of VVT or cam phaser unit bearing failures that seemed to be caused by the use of drive around flushes, as like a turbo they are easily damaged by any type of poor lubrication.

So the easy safe way to clean up a sludge monster if you don't want to do a full top and bottom manual clean, is to drop the sump if practical and clean it and the all important oil pump intake to get rid of the worst of the sludge, use a major brand idle flush (Might need to be done twice in a bad case) and then keep the first few OCI's to half normal with a good cleaner oil like M1 0w40 or Shell Ultra and keep an eye out for oil leaks just in case you need to use a stop leak. If the engine had any to start with, it's not a bad idea to switch to using an HM oil after the flush. Maxlife 10w40 and GTX 15w40 are the only ones that are cheap and easy to find in the EU, but there are lots of HM oils available in the US and I think Mobil make the best ones at present.

Last edited by UltrafanUK; 12/14/16 04:06 AM.
Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: jarad248] #4274370 12/14/16 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: jarad248

Thought on cleaning the ring packs up to further reduce oil consumption....

It is a myth that transmission fluid has more detergent in it that oil. why would anyone think that?
Transmissions are a closed system with nothing coming in to contaminate !!

Diesel oil has a lot of detergent.

You wanna clean your engine out the safe way.? run a light weight oil like castrol edge high mileage 0w20 or 5w20.

Run it for around 500-1500 miles. then change it for whatever you like. castrol edge is the best though.

If you want to use a safe potion try >>stp gumout multi engine<< or seafoam multi engine treatment in your oil for 1500 miles.

When you have room add 8 to 10 oz.

when it gets dirty change it. Please remember no oil in the world will ever handle acid build up beyond 7500 miles.


The first I'm hearing of using Castrol Edge 0W20 and 5W20 for 500-1500 miles as an engine cleaner. I have my doubts.
I wouldn't be adding STP or Gumout fuel system cleaners to my oil either. I think either one will do more harm than good.


God Bless Our Troops

Re: Cleaning sludgy nissan VQ [Re: jarad248] #4274416 12/14/16 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted By: jarad248

Thought on cleaning the ring packs up to further reduce oil consumption....
It is a myth that transmission fluid has more detergent in it that oil. why would anyone think that?
Transmissions are a closed system with nothing coming in to contaminate !!
Diesel oil has a lot of detergent.
You wanna clean your engine out the safe way.? run a light weight oil like castrol edge high mileage 0w20 or 5w20.
Run it for around 500-1500 miles. then change it for whatever you like. castrol edge is the best though.
If you want to use a safe potion try >>stp gumout multi engine<< or seafoam multi engine treatment in your oil for 1500 miles.
When you have room add 8 to 10 oz.
when it gets dirty change it. Please remember no oil in the world will ever handle acid build up beyond 7500 miles.


Umm, err!
If you don't want to do a risky piston soak (A badly worn engine can be very difficult to start after a piston soak, as remjoving the varnish and Carbon deposits around the ring seats reduces compression), just use a major brand idle flush and a real good WOT session or even a full Italian to burn out the Carbon.

Never, ever put tranny or brake fluid in an engine to try and clean it, it might not be compatible with the oil seals or gasket sealants and it can wreck the add pack. They do not contain much if any detergents and using a high detergent additive or oil is not an effective way at removing varnish anyway It's takes far too long!

Only major brand HDEO oils have high detegent levels (More than 3000 ppm of Mg plus Ca), some of the cheaper ones are not good cleaners. One of the Amsoils has 4000 ppm of Ca, but is kind of expensive for a short OCI cleaner.

If you have a badly sludged up engine, it's a real daft idea not to fix the issue ASAP. Doing a series of short OCI's is not a safe option and takes far too long. It's also expensive in oil & filter terms.

If you are doing a few short OCI's to get rid of some minor sludge or varnish, just use the thinnest oil that meets the required API or Acea specs and owners manual SAE group limits.
Using a thick oil will slow down top end oil flow and that slows down the cleaning process.

No idea why you think an oil can't handle acids beyond 7500 miles. My last Twingo OCI was 50K km and no harm was done, although I did flush it as the oil was real black.
Lots of UOA fans get real excited by low TBN/TAN issues, but in most non race engines it does not matter if you make one mistake when extending an OCI, as long as you don't do it again, or decide to become a flushaholic!

Last edited by UltrafanUK; 12/14/16 08:20 AM.
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