Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ...

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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: MolaKule



Lab Analysis of MMO COmponents


Can you confirm the lard?

I suppose the phosphorus could be lard phospholipid, but you might need GC/GLC/HPLC to confirm.


You're joking, right?
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No, I just read the thread. Its mentioned in the OP.

Of course I don't know its true, but the source isn't obviously suspect, and I don't see it as especially unbelievable. Not for something called Marvel Mystery Oil, anyway.

IIRC tallow (essentially the same thing) is used as a lubricant in steel rolling mills. It'll be polar, so might be quite a good boundary lubricant/friction modifier, and compensate for the high solvent content of MMO, which might otherwise compromise lubricity,...er lubrication, I mean. (or whatever the contemporary phrase for lubricity is).

Thermal stability might be a problem, though.

Always meant to try it (tallow, not MMO, which AFAIK I can't get anyway) as a chain lube, but I ride motorcycles too seldom to give it much of a test.
 
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Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: MolaKule



Lab Analysis of MMO COmponents


Can you confirm the lard?

I suppose the phosphorus could be lard phospholipid, but you might need GC/GLC/HPLC to confirm.


You're joking, right?
confused2.gif



Thermal stability might be a problem, though.


Oxidative stability/rancidity too, though the other components might protect the lard a bit, and I think some lards are protected by anti-oxidants.

Then there's the hydrogenation / trans-fats modifications, a la Crisco, which are supposed to increase stability.

I'd rather have that stuff in my engine than in my arteries.
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I a th

...and the lard will be poor mans AutoRX (bio-oils), so that's cause to go get some all by itself....

I have used it on and off for decades on oil burners and rough running engines. About 75% of the time it'll help in one oil change interval.

I have moved on to BG109 and my fix in a can
smile.gif


But under some circumstances, I'd grab a can of MMO and go for it again
laugh.gif



I don't know how anyone could assume there is any lard in MMO.
confused2.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: MrQuackers
"According to an NTSB post aircraft accident investigation published in 2003, a Marvel Mystery Oil sample tested was composed of 74 percent mineral oil, 25 percent stoddard solvent, and 1 percent lard"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Mystery_Oil




Quote:
NTSB Identification: NYC02LA181
On September 3, 2002, about 1200 eastern daylight time, a Piper PA-18, N5428H, operated by Aerial Sign Company of Hollywood, Florida, was substantially damaged during a forced landing in Belmar, New Jersey. The certificated commercial pilot was not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight that departed Allaire Airport, Belmar, New Jersey. No flight plan had been filed for the positioning flight that was conducted under 14 CFR Part 91.

According to the pilot, the airplane was used for banner towing and was being repositioned to Hollywood, Florida, with intermediate stops at Norfolk, Virginia, and Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. The pilot departed on runway 32, and performed a right downwind departure. He switched fuel tanks while climbing, and leveled the airplane at 1,200 feet mean sea level (MSL). As the airplane neared the coast line, the engine "smoothly" lost power. The pilot turned the airplane back toward the departure airport. However, he was unable to restore engine power, and set up for a forced landing in an open field. On final approach, he saw the field was uneven, and turned the airplane to land in a soccer field. The airplane touched down without incident; however, due to people on the right, a building straight ahead, and a chain link fence to the left, the pilot turned the airplane to the left. The airplane struck the fence and came to rest on its nose.

The pilot reported that the airplane had 3 fuel tanks, each with a capacity of 18 gallons. One was located in the left wing, and two were located in the right wing. During his preflight inspection of the airplane, he noticed that the fuel in one tank was pink in color. He attributed that to the addition of a fuel additive. The fuel in the other tanks were blue in color. Departure was made on the left wing tank, and he switched to the right inboard tank on the climb.

According to an inspector from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the left elevator was crushed and bent, the left wing struts were bowed, and the firewall was wrinkled. He reported that the fuel in the left wing tank, the carburetor, and the main fuel strainer was red in color, and had an oily feel when touched. In addition, the fuel selector was checked and found to operative with no blockage; the main fuel sump was not blocked; no problems were noted with the carburetor float, and the main jet on the carburetor was absent of debris.

Although the pilot and FAA inspector did not report the same fuel tank as containing the red colored fuel, both were in agreement that the one tank contained the red colored fuel.

The operator told the FAA inspector that the red color was from an additive placed in the fuel tank, at a rate of one quart for each refueling. Examination of the engine revealed low compression on all cylinders, ranging from 44/80 to 5/80. Air bypass was noted on all exhaust valves, and on two of the intake valves. The number two cylinder was removed, and evidence consistent with detonation was found on the surface of the piston, and on the valves.

According to the FAA inspector, the additive that was added to the fuel was Marvel Mystery Oil. An empty 1 gallon can of Marvel Mystery Oil was found in the operator's trash. Instructions found on the can stated that the correct ratio for mixing with fuel was 1 part additive to 100 parts fuel. The contents of Marvel Mystery Oil were 74 percent mineral oil, 25 percent stoddard solvent, and 1 percent lard.

In a telephone interview, the pilot reported that the manager of Aerial Signs told him that the oil had been added.

The Chief Pilot reported that there were no specific procedures for the use of Marvel Mystery Oil, no written direction, and it was not being used anymore.

The Manager of Aerial Signs reported that he had told his pilots to not use Marvel Mystery Oil any more. In addition, he talked to the mechanics, and they had not added it and the pilot reported that he had not added it.

According to Lycoming Service Instruction No. 1014M, dated May 22, 1995, the use of fuel additives was not recommended, and voided the engine warranty.


OK, enough of this ridiculous internet misinformation. The above quote is the actual NTSB report with certain sentences emphasized.

Here is what we know:

1. Marvel Mystery Oil contains the components listed in the Lab analysis and nothing more. No form of any triglyceride was found in the OTS samples we tested. The formula has not changed since it's original brew. Even the old TCP form of phosphates are still being used.

Conclusion: If lard was found in the MMO samples by the NTSB, it had to have been put into the 1 Gal. can by someone doing a "homebrew" mix.

Was one or more of the mechanic's at the Operator's facility doing an experiment?

Was some mechanic at the Operator's facility not happy with this specific pilot or a previous pilot? Had a previous pilot added this mix at the conclusion of a previous flight?

Notice this specific sentence below:

Quote:
...The Manager of Aerial Signs reported that he had told his pilots to not use Marvel Mystery Oil any more.In addition, he talked to the mechanics, and they had not added it and the pilot [of the failed flight] reported that he had not added it...


AaaHaa. So the Manager was apparently aware of MMO's use at THIS facility.
 
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editor timeout so this is repeated here:

Notice this specific sentence below:

Quote:

...The Manager of Aerial Signs reported that he had told his pilots to not use Marvel Mystery Oil any more. In addition, he talked to the mechanics, and they had not added it and the pilot [of the failed flight] reported that he had not added it...



AaaHaa. So the Manager was apparently aware of MMO's use at THIS facility, and the piliot reported that the manager had "encouraged" the use of MMO to the fuel. Ignorance of adding an OTC fuel additive almost got this pilot killed.

Quote:
...In a telephone interview, the pilot reported that the manager of Aerial Signs told him that the oil had been added...


So now everyone at this facility is denying the use of MMO in order to stay out of the Hot Seat, which is typical, even though Lycoming said not to use ANY fuel additive.
 
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Some sloppy wording floating around here. You'd think they'd be more careful in this sort of context, especially in the USA, where I've heard there are one or two lawyers.

This is apparently "official" text, though there is probably a fuller version.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviati...A181&akey=1

"An empty 1 gallon can of Marvel Mystery Oil was found in the operator's trash. Instructions found on the can stated that the correct ratio for mixing with fuel was 1 part additive to 100 parts fuel. The contents of Marvel Mystery Oil were 74 percent mineral oil, 25 percent stoddard solvent, and 1 percent lard."

That's ambiguous. It unclear whether it's talking about the contents of this "empty" can or whether its intended to be a general statement on the composition of Marvel Mystery Oil, or based on another sample.

Strictly speaking (which is how you should speak, and certainly write, in this context) if they meant this can they should have said so, and the phrase Marvel Mystery Oil should not be there, since it precludes the addition of anything else.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
enough of this ridiculous internet misinformation.


Why ridiculous? Even if its untrue for the sample or samples you have tested, that doesn't make it ridiculous.

As I am sure you are more fully aware than just about anybody, there's a long history of animal and vegetable fat use in lubricant, and a lot of current interest in improving the performance of biolubricants by genetic or chemical modifications such as esterification, epoxidation, and hydrogenation.

At first sight, a National Transportation Safety Board report doesn't easily fit into the category "ridiculous internet misinformation". though considered more closely it does look a bit dodgy.


Originally Posted By: MolaKule


Here is what we know:

1. Marvel Mystery Oil contains the components listed in the Lab analysis and nothing more. No form of any triglyceride was found in the OTS samples we tested. The formula has not changed since it's original brew. Even the old TCP form of phosphates are still being used.



No, that is what you knew, but have only just now revealed, perhaps because it took you three goes and some very direct pointers to work out what was being discussed.

Unless I missed it, the lab report info you originally shared gives the concentrations of the elements phosphorus and potassium but gives no indication as to what compounds they were present in, nor does it contain any of the other information above.

All that said, looked at more closely, the accident report summary that sparked this discussion does look surprisingly dodgy. Sloppy wording aside, IF they did an analysis of anything, why not the fuel in the aircraft (carburettor or tank) rather than a can they found in the rubbish?

As it is, they seem to have concluded that this incident was caused by fuel additive, but have not confirmed

(a) that additive was in use (though it seems likely)
(b) how much was in use
(c) that the engine damage reported was caused, or was likely to have been caused, by the additive
(d) that the engine damage reported caused the crash.

I suppose resources for light aircraft incident investigation are limited, and the rules of evidence only apply if there's a court case, but even so, its not very convincing.
 
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Originally Posted By: Ducked
Unless I missed it, the lab report info you originally shared gives the concentrations of the elements phosphorus and potassium but gives no indication as to what compounds they were present in, nor does it contain any of the other information above.


No, more than just those two elements were revealed.

I think Ducked did miss the point and didn't read the linked reference. Physical Chemistry entails the use of Analytical Chemistry instrumentation and was used to analyze the samples right out of the bottles.

In analyzing the molecular structure we used analytical instrumentation such as
1. spectroscopic instrumentation which analyzes the Rotational, Vibrational, and Electronic structure,
2. spectroscopic instrumentation that analyzes the Magnetic domain, such as NMR.

If any "lardic" components had shown up, the triglycerides would have shown up in one or more of the spectroscopic studies. You might want to google "lard" and "triglycerides."

By comparing the structure of the virgin chemistry (such as the various phosphates) with the resulting structures and graphics resulting from analysis of the compounds (MMO), we can determine the exact makeup of the resulting compound.

The main point Ducked missed is that it is apparent that the MMO was contaminated or doctored with something over and above than what comes from the manf./blender.

To make a sweeping statement to say that MMO contains lard, as it comes from the manf./blender, is ludicrous, and this is the Internet misinformation to which I was pointing.

So I await Ducked's analysis to refute our Lab's analysis, or to shed light on other compounds that our quarter-mil+ Lab instrumentation failed to find.
 
Quote:
No, more than just those two elements were revealed.


Editor timeout again.

Other compounds were revealed in "addition" to those two elements mentioned.


Originally Posted By: Ducked
As I am sure you are more fully aware than just about anybody, there's a long history of animal and vegetable fat use in lubricant, and a lot of current interest in improving the performance of biolubricants by genetic or chemical modifications such as esterification, epoxidation, and hydrogenation.


And that has zero reference with respect to the contamination of this compound.

And yes, the wording of the NTSB investigation and report was sloppy in terms of analysis and the chain-of-evidence.

If the MMO has been 'doctored" I can see where the lard would have lowered the pour point of the fuel and clogged the fuel line and carb passageways.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule


So I await Ducked's analysis to refute our Lab's analysis, or to shed light on other compounds that our quarter-mil+ Lab instrumentation failed to find.


Not necessary.

As I thought I made quite clear, my objection was to your use of the word "ridiculous". If you thought I was questioning your laboratories analytical competence or the price tag on your equipment, then you again missed the point.

My point was mainly that there is nothing inherently ridiculous in the idea of animal fats in a product like MMO, and secondarily that the rather limited analytical information you originally provided didn't seem to exclude that possibility.

If you now say you can, I have no reason to disbelieve you.

Re the light aircraft accident, with that quality of investigation and reporting, who knows? But IIRC the report specifically says that the carburettor was not clogged.
 
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Originally Posted By: Ducked
MolaKule said:
...My point was mainly that there is nothing inherently ridiculous in the idea of animal fats in a product like MMO, and secondarily that the rather limited analytical information you originally provided didn't seem to exclude that possibility...





Bottom line is, is there was anything else found in our analysis, then the chemistry would have been reported, so it did exclude the possibly of fatty acids or esters.
 
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quote=MolaKule]
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: MolaKule


...My point was mainly that there is nothing inherently ridiculous in the idea of animal fats in a product like MMO, and secondarily that the rather limited analytical information you originally provided didn't seem to exclude that possibility...





Bottom line is, is there was anything else found in our analysis, then the chemistry would have been reported, so it did exclude the possibly of fatty acids or esters.



OK, but you didn't give the source of the phosphorous in the original analysis, which allowed the speculation that at least some of it could have been from animal fat phospholipid, though I think there's far too much there to have come from 1% lard alone.

The source of the phosphorous wasn't given until page 4 of the thread, after speculation by some other posters, where you wrote

"It's TCP because there is was no appreciable sulfur found."

I'm afraid I didn't read that far the first time, but on current form you'll be able to relate to that.

Anyway, my original question was "Can you confirm the lard" and you've er...disconfirmed it, so we got there in the end.

Re the light aircraft accident, Speculation City (that should be an actual city in the US, surely?) but IF it was used at 1:100, and IF there was 1% lard in the original can, that's only, what, 100mg/L?

Is that likely to be enough to significantly lower pour point?
 
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Originally Posted By: Jetronic
It could fall out of suspension in the cold fuel lines/Filter and clog them like cholesterol in arteries


Maybe, but I'd expect petrol (with or without MMO) would be quite a good fat solvent, the conditions and altitude were not extreme, and 4WIW the report is quoted above as saying

"the main fuel sump was not blocked; no problems were noted with the carburetor float, and the main jet on the carburetor was absent of debris. "

However, I suppose a cold-precipitated material could go back into solution when warmed up on the ground.
 
Originally Posted By: Ducked



...OK, but you didn't give the source of the phosphorous in the original analysis, which allowed the speculation that at least some of it could have been from animal fat phospholipid, though I think there's far too much there to have come from 1% lard alone.

The source of the phosphorous wasn't given until page 4 of the thread, after speculation by some other posters, where you wrote...


Anyway, my original question was "Can you confirm the lard" and you've er...disconfirmed it, so we got there in the end.



I didn't think I had to give the source of the phosphorus since the original analysis was to answer the question: is there a lab analysis of MMO without the "hype" and misinformation provided by the Internet.

Speculation of phos-based lipids was brought up much later after the original analysis.

If there were any questions about the results of the MMO lab analysis, why not go to that thread and ask the question there?

BTW, here are how the tests went down.

Nine advanced Physical Chemistry students were divided into three groups. These three groups were given directions to go to retail stores on the weekend and randomly list a series of hydrocarbon-based products they would like to test. Why hydrocarbon-based products? Because this was one of three subject matter topics for this course. (The other two subject matter topics for the semester delt with pharmaceuticals and personal care products).

A committee of profs from the Chemistry, Physics, and Mechanical Engineering departments, plus lab assistants, culled the list to make the list fit within the allotted budget. The Uni provided a check to procure three of each of the products on the culled list.

Each of the three teams then had to analyze each of the three samples from the culled list with the lab's instrumentation. Each of the three teams could not discuss their ongoing analysis with any other team. Each team's results were then inspected for familiarity with instrumentation, accuracy, and the thoroughness of their reports.


I can assure you that shortly after the time of the phos-based lipids statement, there was internet misinformation going around about lard in MMO simply because someone mentioned it on BITOG.
 
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Quote:
Then there's the hydrogenation / trans-fats modifications, a la Crisco, which are supposed to increase stability.


As an aside that some folks here might find interesting, I have been building old Harley (Panhead / Shovelhead / Ironhead) motors for a little over 30 years. I use a Sunnen hone on the cylinders, works better than anything else I've found, can't beat it for accuracy of fit or longevity of the finished product.

And the best honing lubricant I have found for cast iron? Crisco and ATF. Seriously. I rub a thin layer of Crisco all over the cylinder wall, squirt in a little ATF, and off we go. The stones last longer, the cut stays nice and cool, very smooth, no chatter, great cutting speed, minimal clean up with the Flex hone, works great.

I am of course wondering if the nickel hydrogenation process has anything to do with it.
 
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
It could fall out of suspension in the cold fuel lines/Filter and clog them like cholesterol in arteries


Maybe, but I'd expect petrol (with or without MMO) would be quite a good fat solvent, the conditions and altitude were not extreme, and 4WIW the report is quoted above as saying

"the main fuel sump was not blocked; no problems were noted with the carburetor float, and the main jet on the carburetor was absent of debris. "

However, I suppose a cold-precipitated material could go back into solution when warmed up on the ground.


I suppose the anniline point could be determined for the fuel, and that could give a clue about how soluble the fuel is at cold temperatures.
 
Or maybe the guy was trying to do a piston soak while in flight. How much add should have to make a blue fuel to become pink in a fuel tank. I believe way more than 50%. Avgas is designed to become transparent incolor, when some other liquid as fuel od add is added to it.
 
Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
So what exactly was revealed about MMO that hasn't already been stated?


Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
The Lard part
laugh.gif



The rumors of their recipe has been out there for years and has been brought up on here many times over the last decade.
 
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