Viscosity Index. When is the VI considered high.

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For a while I have working on choosing the 0w-20 oil I wanted to use your in the family car. And last Sunday I poured a 0w-20 into an engine for the first time. It really is verry thin. I ended choosing Castrol magnatec pro gf 0w-20. I normally never choose castrol products. But choose it because it had the highest VI( 208 )

But when is the VI considered high ? And exactly what does a good high VI tell about an oil?

Thanks all, and have a nice weekend.

Søren
 
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Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
High Viscosity Index usually means less VII ( Viscosity index improvers ) and since there are les VII's to be sheared the oil is less likely to go down in viscosity


I believe you have that backwards. PAO and GTL as bases do not have VI's in the 200 range. You can blend a 5w-20 and probably a 0w-20 with absolutely no VII whatsoever using just PAO as the base and the VI of the final product will be in the low 160's IIRC. On the other hand, a lighter, less expensive base dosed with some PPD's and high quality VII's added to meet the intended grade and you can end up with a product with a very high finished VI.
 
Bach donut No1 whac the startling VI of base oil mix?
You have but jus fini produit.

208 is, like, wicked toasted.

An, Son of Z@ren, thin for jus a momentum that, at the 17C you pour in wale coverlet = to 20W50 grade warm in hardly motorcycle. So maybe 37cSt for this produit?
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Bach donut No1 whac the startling VI of base oil mix?
You have but jus fini produit.

208 is, like, wicked toasted.

An, Son of Z@ren, thin for jus a momentum that, at the 17C you pour in wale coverlet = to 20W50 grade warm in hardly motorcycle. So maybe 37cSt for this produit?


What's toasted?
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Bach donut No1 whac the startling VI of base oil mix?
You have but jus fini produit.

208 is, like, wicked toasted.

An, Son of Z@ren, thin for jus a momentum that, at the 17C you pour in wale coverlet = to 20W50 grade warm in hardly motorcycle. So maybe 37cSt for this produit?


Serious question: Are you having a stroke? You may want to seek medical attention immediately. I'm not trying to be a clown, if this was not written intentionally to be gibberish, you need to call 911, you may be having a medical emergency.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Bach donut No1 whac the startling VI of base oil mix?
You have but jus fini produit.

208 is, like, wicked toasted.

An, Son of Z@ren, thin for jus a momentum that, at the 17C you pour in wale coverlet = to 20W50 grade warm in hardly motorcycle. So maybe 37cSt for this produit?


Serious question: Are you having a stroke? You may want to seek medical attention immediately. I'm not trying to be a clown, if this was not written intentionally to be gibberish, you need to call 911, you may be having a medical emergency.


Drunk?
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Bach donut No1 whac the startling VI of base oil mix?
You have but jus fini produit.

208 is, like, wicked toasted.

An, Son of Z@ren, thin for jus a momentum that, at the 17C you pour in wale coverlet = to 20W50 grade warm in hardly motorcycle. So maybe 37cSt for this produit?


Serious question: Are you having a stroke? You may want to seek medical attention immediately. I'm not trying to be a clown, if this was not written intentionally to be gibberish, you need to call 911, you may be having a medical emergency.



I almost googled Son of Zoren. Sounds like a serial killer.
 
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
High Viscosity Index usually means less VII ( Viscosity index improvers ) and since there are les VII's to be sheared the oil is less likely to go down in viscosity
The higher the finished oils VI the more viscosity improvers there is.
 
Originally Posted By: jayg
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Bach donut No1 whac the startling VI of base oil mix?
You have but jus fini produit.

208 is, like, wicked toasted.

An, Son of Z@ren, thin for jus a momentum that, at the 17C you pour in wale coverlet = to 20W50 grade warm in hardly motorcycle. So maybe 37cSt for this produit?


Serious question: Are you having a stroke? You may want to seek medical attention immediately. I'm not trying to be a clown, if this was not written intentionally to be gibberish, you need to call 911, you may be having a medical emergency.



I almost googled Son of Zoren. Sounds like a serial killer.


I Think maybe the " son of zoren " is some kind of twisted mind offspring from my name. Which by the way doesn't mean " son of zoren " My first name Søren, means nothing and my last name, Hansen means " son of Hans "
 
As I understand it, viscosity index is the ability of an oil to resist changes in viscosity due to temperature. Oils with a higher viscosity index will thicken less as the oil cools. Oils with a lower viscosity index will thicken more as the oil cools. From this standpoint, a higher viscosity index may be desirable.

But, there is no free lunch. Viscosity index improvers apparently degrade and shear rapidly, and sometimes allow an oil to shear out of grade quicker than an oil with a lower amount of these. From this standpoint, a lower viscosity index may be desirable, especially for longer drain intervals.

Few oils are at the "extreme" ends of the scale. I would consider a viscosity index of over 200 to be pretty high. I think 230-240 is as high as I've seen for over the counter motor oil or transmission fluid. Most oils are in the 130-170 range. Straight grades are quite a bit lower than that. They suffer extreme changes in viscosity with temperature, but they also don't really shear down that much.

You can't have it all.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Bach donut No1 whac the startling VI of base oil mix?
You have but jus fini produit.

208 is, like, wicked toasted.

An, Son of Z@ren, thin for jus a momentum that, at the 17C you pour in wale coverlet = to 20W50 grade warm in hardly motorcycle. So maybe 37cSt for this produit?


Serious question: Are you having a stroke? You may want to seek medical attention immediately. I'm not trying to be a clown, if this was not written intentionally to be gibberish, you need to call 911, you may be having a medical emergency.


If you're not drunk of having a stroke, please read what you write before posting. You may have something good to add, but we'll never know when you respond with such gibberish.
 
VI just measures the change in viscosity between 40 and 100C. Not meaningless, but an oil with a high VI can still lack good very cold weather performance.
 
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Going back in time, oils were basically what was dug up out of the ground, and varied wildly between regions depending on the typical molecular make-up of that source.

It was known that some of those oils changed their viscosity less with temperature (and these also appeared to be more thermally stable, for much the same reason), and were typically the "Pennsylvania" type crudes....being the best it was given a "viscosity index" of 100.

Here's a typical set of curves for Viscosity/temperature for a typical VII of 98-102 industrial oil. (Didn't insert the image).

An oil with a HIGH viscosity index will start higher at the left of the chart and finish lower at the right. The grades are ISO grades, which are defined by the viscosity at 40C...it's easier to use at this point, as the 40C and 100C points are used against this 100 VI reference to determine viscosity index.

http://www.cc-jensen.com/index.php?m=p&pid=132

Print it out, and using the data for your 0W20, plot them out.
40C, your oil is 39cst (say it's an ISO 46 at that temperature for discussion).
100C, your oil is 8.9cst (which lines up pretty closely to the ISO 68).

So you can see that your oil crosses multiple lines, and is flatter...at higher temperatures than 100C, it will be less thin than either the 46, OR the 48, and at freezing wouldn't be as thick as an ISO32.

Which, within some limitations that I'll go into in a later post is a good thing.
 
Now when you have a base oil with improved viscosity index, that's a good thing, and higher is better, and you paid a premium to get it. Here's a Shell presentation of their XHVI basestocks from my collection in the 90s, which explains what I was doing with the ISO charts but in "grades".

Focus on the RHS chart for a bit...see the 100VI lines for 15W, and SAE30, and how the Shell basestock meets both at different temperatures...was sold in OZ as Shell XMO 15W30, and if I knew then what I knew now, I would have bought it at the time...

Shell XHVI has an inherent VI of 140, same as Polyalphaolefin.

DOC020914-02092014162444-0001-1.jpg


https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3471384/1997_Shell_Product_Data_Book_-

Now focus on the part at the left, that part on shear rate, and go to another post.
 
Early on, and knowing that high VI was "good", chemists started to find additives that are called "Viscosity Index Improvers".

These are typically polymers (think of a white plastic pencil eraser, that's similar) that have a solubility change with temperature. They start "coiled", at lower temperatures, then "fluff" up at higher temperatures. When they do that, they start to interact with and impede the oil, and increase it's viscosity.

temperaturegraph.gif


But the problem with these molecules is that they are also susceptible to the shear rate within engine components...when components are moving fast past each other, these polymers start to flatten out, and lose their effectiveness at increasing viscosity.

Here's some tests from a main bearing in an engine that shows what Shell were talking about in their Left Hand Columns.

Bearing%20Viscosity.jpg


As the shear rate (RPM) increased to a certain point, the lining up of the polymers meant that the oil behaved as a thinner oil, closer to the basestock without VII additives...offering less protection from parts contact.

Because of this behaviour, and the fact that these multigrade oils weren't offering the protection that their grade suggested, HTHS (High temperature, high shear...150C, and 10^6 shear rate, quite typical of a big end at a reasonable RPM) was included alongside the grade as a minimum. The minimum was (naturally) lower than was typical for a monograde no VII oil.

e.g.
SAE30, which would typically have an HTHS of 3.5, was given an HTHS minimum of 2.9.
SAE20, which would normally have an HTHS of 2.9, was given an HTHS minimum of 2.6.
SAE40, which would normally be 4.3+ HTHS was split 0W, 5W, and 10W 40 (passenger grades) were given a minimum of 2.9, and 15W, 20W, 25W, and SAE40 (heavy duty grades) given a 3.7 minimum.

The 40 grades were fixed in 2013, with 3.5 and 3.7 targets respectively
 
When the polymers are straighetened out in high shear, two things can happen.

First is where they pass through the rings, bearings, or whatever and they spring back into shape...the good ones do this.

Second is when they are "broken", into smaller parts, and therefore can't spring back...they all do this to some extent, and the bad ones moreso.

So not only do you lose the viscosity that you thought that you have, you have broken molecules in the sump that are hungry for something to attach to, and react with stuff like oxygen and NOX and the like, producing oxidation byproducts...not a biggy, but there.

As to the protection afforded bearings, HTHS, the HTHS loss when an oil "shears" permanently is only about half the percentage loss of Kinematic Viscosity at 100C.

HTHS%20Loss%20KV.jpg
 
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Originally Posted By: shDK
But when is the VI considered high ? And exactly what does a good high VI tell about an oil?

Thanks all, and have a nice weekend.

Søren


As to what it tells you about an oil ?

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3022346

Not much really, as you don't know how the oil was built.

Was it a 140VI basestock with an amount of VII added to get it to 208 ?
Was it a 120VI basestock with a lot more VII added to get it to 208 ?

What VIIs were used, and how stable are they?

What was the oil designer's intent ?
e.g. did they intend shear to take place early (like some of the Japanese OEMs DID) so that economy was bolsted, still within the existing grade structure (that's before 16, 12, and 8 were introduced).

By comparing the Kinematic Viscosities of the oil with the high shear viscosities for that lubricant you can at least get a feel for how much the oil has been "modified" by the addition of these polymers.

For your Castrol 0W20, the ratio of HTHS to theoretical is 82%.
For my Castrol Edge 5W30 (A3/B4), the ratio of HTHS to theoretical is 94%, and VI is "only" 165.

Yours appears to have a relatively light basestock for it's grade, and more influence by VII polymers.
 
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The 1st chart you posted from the 1997 Shell product book, shows volatility dropping while VI is improving.
Cheap lubricants can still stay in grade as they shear if the volatility is high.
Is high volatility the building block for varnish, or is something else?
 
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Well said sir.

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
As I understand it, viscosity index is the ability of an oil to resist changes in viscosity due to temperature. Oils with a higher viscosity index will thicken less as the oil cools. Oils with a lower viscosity index will thicken more as the oil cools. From this standpoint, a higher viscosity index may be desirable.

But, there is no free lunch. Viscosity index improvers apparently degrade and shear rapidly, and sometimes allow an oil to shear out of grade quicker than an oil with a lower amount of these. From this standpoint, a lower viscosity index may be desirable, especially for longer drain intervals.

Few oils are at the "extreme" ends of the scale. I would consider a viscosity index of over 200 to be pretty high. I think 230-240 is as high as I've seen for over the counter motor oil or transmission fluid. Most oils are in the 130-170 range. Straight grades are quite a bit lower than that. They suffer extreme changes in viscosity with temperature, but they also don't really shear down that much.

You can't have it all.
 
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