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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: BrocLuno] #4223240
10/11/16 10:24 AM
10/11/16 10:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,696
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline

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editor timeout so this is repeated here:

Notice this specific sentence below:

Quote:

...The Manager of Aerial Signs reported that he had told his pilots to not use Marvel Mystery Oil any more. In addition, he talked to the mechanics, and they had not added it and the pilot [of the failed flight] reported that he had not added it...



AaaHaa. So the Manager was apparently aware of MMO's use at THIS facility, and the piliot reported that the manager had "encouraged" the use of MMO to the fuel. Ignorance of adding an OTC fuel additive almost got this pilot killed.

Quote:
...In a telephone interview, the pilot reported that the manager of Aerial Signs told him that the oil had been added...


So now everyone at this facility is denying the use of MMO in order to stay out of the Hot Seat, which is typical, even though Lycoming said not to use ANY fuel additive.

Last edited by MolaKule; 10/11/16 10:35 AM.

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: BrocLuno] #4224442
10/13/16 02:52 AM
10/13/16 02:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
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Some sloppy wording floating around here. You'd think they'd be more careful in this sort of context, especially in the USA, where I've heard there are one or two lawyers.

This is apparently "official" text, though there is probably a fuller version.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviati...A181&akey=1

"An empty 1 gallon can of Marvel Mystery Oil was found in the operator's trash. Instructions found on the can stated that the correct ratio for mixing with fuel was 1 part additive to 100 parts fuel. The contents of Marvel Mystery Oil were 74 percent mineral oil, 25 percent stoddard solvent, and 1 percent lard."

That's ambiguous. It unclear whether it's talking about the contents of this "empty" can or whether its intended to be a general statement on the composition of Marvel Mystery Oil, or based on another sample.

Strictly speaking (which is how you should speak, and certainly write, in this context) if they meant this can they should have said so, and the phrase Marvel Mystery Oil should not be there, since it precludes the addition of anything else.

Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: MolaKule] #4224519
10/13/16 06:44 AM
10/13/16 06:44 AM
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Ducked Offline
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
enough of this ridiculous internet misinformation.


Why ridiculous? Even if its untrue for the sample or samples you have tested, that doesn't make it ridiculous.

As I am sure you are more fully aware than just about anybody, there's a long history of animal and vegetable fat use in lubricant, and a lot of current interest in improving the performance of biolubricants by genetic or chemical modifications such as esterification, epoxidation, and hydrogenation.

At first sight, a National Transportation Safety Board report doesn't easily fit into the category "ridiculous internet misinformation". though considered more closely it does look a bit dodgy.


Originally Posted By: MolaKule


Here is what we know:

1. Marvel Mystery Oil contains the components listed in the Lab analysis and nothing more. No form of any triglyceride was found in the OTS samples we tested. The formula has not changed since it's original brew. Even the old TCP form of phosphates are still being used.



No, that is what you knew, but have only just now revealed, perhaps because it took you three goes and some very direct pointers to work out what was being discussed.

Unless I missed it, the lab report info you originally shared gives the concentrations of the elements phosphorus and potassium but gives no indication as to what compounds they were present in, nor does it contain any of the other information above.

All that said, looked at more closely, the accident report summary that sparked this discussion does look surprisingly dodgy. Sloppy wording aside, IF they did an analysis of anything, why not the fuel in the aircraft (carburettor or tank) rather than a can they found in the rubbish?

As it is, they seem to have concluded that this incident was caused by fuel additive, but have not confirmed

(a) that additive was in use (though it seems likely)
(b) how much was in use
(c) that the engine damage reported was caused, or was likely to have been caused, by the additive
(d) that the engine damage reported caused the crash.

I suppose resources for light aircraft incident investigation are limited, and the rules of evidence only apply if there's a court case, but even so, its not very convincing.

Last edited by Ducked; 10/13/16 06:48 AM. Reason: CMA
Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: BrocLuno] #4224603
10/13/16 09:42 AM
10/13/16 09:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,696
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ducked
Unless I missed it, the lab report info you originally shared gives the concentrations of the elements phosphorus and potassium but gives no indication as to what compounds they were present in, nor does it contain any of the other information above.


No, more than just those two elements were revealed.

I think Ducked did miss the point and didn't read the linked reference. Physical Chemistry entails the use of Analytical Chemistry instrumentation and was used to analyze the samples right out of the bottles.

In analyzing the molecular structure we used analytical instrumentation such as
1. spectroscopic instrumentation which analyzes the Rotational, Vibrational, and Electronic structure,
2. spectroscopic instrumentation that analyzes the Magnetic domain, such as NMR.

If any "lardic" components had shown up, the triglycerides would have shown up in one or more of the spectroscopic studies. You might want to google "lard" and "triglycerides."

By comparing the structure of the virgin chemistry (such as the various phosphates) with the resulting structures and graphics resulting from analysis of the compounds (MMO), we can determine the exact makeup of the resulting compound.

The main point Ducked missed is that it is apparent that the MMO was contaminated or doctored with something over and above than what comes from the manf./blender.

To make a sweeping statement to say that MMO contains lard, as it comes from the manf./blender, is ludicrous, and this is the Internet misinformation to which I was pointing.

So I await Ducked's analysis to refute our Lab's analysis, or to shed light on other compounds that our quarter-mil+ Lab instrumentation failed to find.


"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: BrocLuno] #4224607
10/13/16 09:51 AM
10/13/16 09:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,696
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
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Quote:
No, more than just those two elements were revealed.


Editor timeout again.

Other compounds were revealed in "addition" to those two elements mentioned.


Originally Posted By: Ducked
As I am sure you are more fully aware than just about anybody, there's a long history of animal and vegetable fat use in lubricant, and a lot of current interest in improving the performance of biolubricants by genetic or chemical modifications such as esterification, epoxidation, and hydrogenation.


And that has zero reference with respect to the contamination of this compound.

And yes, the wording of the NTSB investigation and report was sloppy in terms of analysis and the chain-of-evidence.

If the MMO has been 'doctored" I can see where the lard would have lowered the pour point of the fuel and clogged the fuel line and carb passageways.

Last edited by MolaKule; 10/13/16 10:02 AM.

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: MolaKule] #4225194
10/14/16 05:43 AM
10/14/16 05:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule


So I await Ducked's analysis to refute our Lab's analysis, or to shed light on other compounds that our quarter-mil+ Lab instrumentation failed to find.


Not necessary.

As I thought I made quite clear, my objection was to your use of the word "ridiculous". If you thought I was questioning your laboratories analytical competence or the price tag on your equipment, then you again missed the point.

My point was mainly that there is nothing inherently ridiculous in the idea of animal fats in a product like MMO, and secondarily that the rather limited analytical information you originally provided didn't seem to exclude that possibility.

If you now say you can, I have no reason to disbelieve you.

Re the light aircraft accident, with that quality of investigation and reporting, who knows? But IIRC the report specifically says that the carburettor was not clogged.


Last edited by Ducked; 10/14/16 05:52 AM.
Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: Ducked] #4225497
10/14/16 03:21 PM
10/14/16 03:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
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MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline

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Originally Posted By: Ducked
[quote=MolaKule]

...My point was mainly that there is nothing inherently ridiculous in the idea of animal fats in a product like MMO, and secondarily that the rather limited analytical information you originally provided didn't seem to exclude that possibility...





Bottom line is, is there was anything else found in our analysis, then the chemistry would have been reported, so it did exclude the possibly of fatty acids or esters.


Last edited by MolaKule; 10/14/16 03:26 PM.

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: BrocLuno] #4225730
10/14/16 09:11 PM
10/14/16 09:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline

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Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
quote=MolaKule]
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: MolaKule


...My point was mainly that there is nothing inherently ridiculous in the idea of animal fats in a product like MMO, and secondarily that the rather limited analytical information you originally provided didn't seem to exclude that possibility...





Bottom line is, is there was anything else found in our analysis, then the chemistry would have been reported, so it did exclude the possibly of fatty acids or esters.



OK, but you didn't give the source of the phosphorous in the original analysis, which allowed the speculation that at least some of it could have been from animal fat phospholipid, though I think there's far too much there to have come from 1% lard alone.

The source of the phosphorous wasn't given until page 4 of the thread, after speculation by some other posters, where you wrote

"It's TCP because there is was no appreciable sulfur found."

I'm afraid I didn't read that far the first time, but on current form you'll be able to relate to that.

Anyway, my original question was "Can you confirm the lard" and you've er...disconfirmed it, so we got there in the end.

Re the light aircraft accident, Speculation City (that should be an actual city in the US, surely?) but IF it was used at 1:100, and IF there was 1% lard in the original can, that's only, what, 100mg/L?

Is that likely to be enough to significantly lower pour point?

Last edited by Ducked; 10/14/16 09:12 PM.
Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: BrocLuno] #4225806
10/15/16 12:55 AM
10/15/16 12:55 AM
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Posts: 3,653
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Jetronic Offline
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It could fall out of suspension in the cold fuel lines/Filter and clog them like cholesterol in arteries


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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: Jetronic] #4225972
10/15/16 09:10 AM
10/15/16 09:10 AM
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Ducked Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jetronic
It could fall out of suspension in the cold fuel lines/Filter and clog them like cholesterol in arteries


Maybe, but I'd expect petrol (with or without MMO) would be quite a good fat solvent, the conditions and altitude were not extreme, and 4WIW the report is quoted above as saying

"the main fuel sump was not blocked; no problems were noted with the carburetor float, and the main jet on the carburetor was absent of debris. "

However, I suppose a cold-precipitated material could go back into solution when warmed up on the ground.

Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: Ducked] #4226701
10/16/16 10:39 AM
10/16/16 10:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
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MolaKule Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ducked



...OK, but you didn't give the source of the phosphorous in the original analysis, which allowed the speculation that at least some of it could have been from animal fat phospholipid, though I think there's far too much there to have come from 1% lard alone.

The source of the phosphorous wasn't given until page 4 of the thread, after speculation by some other posters, where you wrote...


Anyway, my original question was "Can you confirm the lard" and you've er...disconfirmed it, so we got there in the end.



I didn't think I had to give the source of the phosphorus since the original analysis was to answer the question: is there a lab analysis of MMO without the "hype" and misinformation provided by the Internet.

Speculation of phos-based lipids was brought up much later after the original analysis.

If there were any questions about the results of the MMO lab analysis, why not go to that thread and ask the question there?

BTW, here are how the tests went down.

Nine advanced Physical Chemistry students were divided into three groups. These three groups were given directions to go to retail stores on the weekend and randomly list a series of hydrocarbon-based products they would like to test. Why hydrocarbon-based products? Because this was one of three subject matter topics for this course. (The other two subject matter topics for the semester delt with pharmaceuticals and personal care products).

A committee of profs from the Chemistry, Physics, and Mechanical Engineering departments, plus lab assistants, culled the list to make the list fit within the allotted budget. The Uni provided a check to procure three of each of the products on the culled list.

Each of the three teams then had to analyze each of the three samples from the culled list with the lab's instrumentation. Each of the three teams could not discuss their ongoing analysis with any other team. Each team's results were then inspected for familiarity with instrumentation, accuracy, and the thoroughness of their reports.


I can assure you that shortly after the time of the phos-based lipids statement, there was internet misinformation going around about lard in MMO simply because someone mentioned it on BITOG.

Last edited by MolaKule; 10/16/16 10:54 AM.

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: Ducked] #4227209
10/16/16 09:34 PM
10/16/16 09:34 PM
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New Mexico USA
CCI Offline
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Quote:
Then there's the hydrogenation / trans-fats modifications, a la Crisco, which are supposed to increase stability.


As an aside that some folks here might find interesting, I have been building old Harley (Panhead / Shovelhead / Ironhead) motors for a little over 30 years. I use a Sunnen hone on the cylinders, works better than anything else I've found, can't beat it for accuracy of fit or longevity of the finished product.

And the best honing lubricant I have found for cast iron? Crisco and ATF. Seriously. I rub a thin layer of Crisco all over the cylinder wall, squirt in a little ATF, and off we go. The stones last longer, the cut stays nice and cool, very smooth, no chatter, great cutting speed, minimal clean up with the Flex hone, works great.

I am of course wondering if the nickel hydrogenation process has anything to do with it.

Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: Ducked] #4227636
10/17/16 12:21 PM
10/17/16 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
It could fall out of suspension in the cold fuel lines/Filter and clog them like cholesterol in arteries


Maybe, but I'd expect petrol (with or without MMO) would be quite a good fat solvent, the conditions and altitude were not extreme, and 4WIW the report is quoted above as saying

"the main fuel sump was not blocked; no problems were noted with the carburetor float, and the main jet on the carburetor was absent of debris. "

However, I suppose a cold-precipitated material could go back into solution when warmed up on the ground.


I suppose the anniline point could be determined for the fuel, and that could give a clue about how soluble the fuel is at cold temperatures.


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Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: BrocLuno] #4227806
10/17/16 05:21 PM
10/17/16 05:21 PM
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Pindorama
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Pindorama
Or maybe the guy was trying to do a piston soak while in flight. How much add should have to make a blue fuel to become pink in a fuel tank. I believe way more than 50%. Avgas is designed to become transparent incolor, when some other liquid as fuel od add is added to it.

Re: Marvel Mystery Oil revealed ... [Re: BrocLuno] #4229894
10/20/16 12:13 PM
10/20/16 12:13 PM
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Rabbit Creek, Alaska
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Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
So what exactly was revealed about MMO that hasn't already been stated?


Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
The Lard part laugh


The rumors of their recipe has been out there for years and has been brought up on here many times over the last decade.


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