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Particle Counts #4206604
09/19/16 02:01 PM
09/19/16 02:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 839
CA, USA
paulri Offline OP
paulri  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 839
CA, USA
I just installed my first M1 filter. Since I will be doing more than one oil change during this time, I'm thinking I might want to do particle counts for the oil at each oil change, and see how the filter is functioning.

I know that Dr. Dave did his with Analysts, Inc. I'll call this week to get prices. What other places do a particle count that does a full count (and not just one group of particles, with an extrapolation for the rest of the numbers)?


2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 156,000 miles
1998 Honda Civic DX; 202,000 miles
Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri] #4206692
09/19/16 04:36 PM
09/19/16 04:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 762
Herndon, VA
btanchors Offline
btanchors  Offline
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 762
Herndon, VA
paulri,

I tried this and attempted to use Blackstone's particle count analysis to compare different brands of premium filters a few years ago. I know Blackstone's particle count methodology does not provide what you are looking for. In the end, although I tried to control as many variables as I could, I could not establish a clear and repeatable conclusion. Perhaps another company might utilize and provide actual particle counts for all the ranges rather than the extrapolation like Blackstone.

I am interested in your project and wish you luck - I am looking forward to see any results you might have.

Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri] #4206797
09/19/16 06:42 PM
09/19/16 06:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 349
Louisiana
Bebop367 Offline
Bebop367  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 349
Louisiana
See link below. I am not sure if this meets what you are looking for......Good Luck

https://test.secure.touchnet.net:8443/C21797test_ustores/web/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCTID=108

Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri] #4206825
09/19/16 07:12 PM
09/19/16 07:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,764
Upstate NY
Donald Online content
Donald  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 20,764
Upstate NY
Get done at Polaris Lab. They do the private label for OAI.


2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT
2015 Ford F250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)
Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri] #4207561
09/20/16 05:15 PM
09/20/16 05:15 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 839
CA, USA
paulri Offline OP
paulri  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 839
CA, USA
Interesting. The link given above by bebop367 is for Wichita State University, which does offer a particle count for $22. I wonder if anyone has purchased any from them—what their experience was?

This link (http://polarislabs.biz/lubricants1.aspx) is the consumer division for Polaris. Their basic particle count is in a pack of 10, for $151. If I want at least 7, then Polaris is the way to go. 151 seems a bit more than I wanted to shell out for this, however.

I would need at least 2 for each car, for any given FCI. But I’m not sure I just want to keep doing this again and again...

I found OAI (Amsoil's analysis division: http://www.oaitesting.com/services.aspx) and called too late in the day. I will add their info to this thread when I can get ahold of them.

Last edited by paulri; 09/20/16 05:16 PM.

2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 156,000 miles
1998 Honda Civic DX; 202,000 miles
Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri] #4208203
09/21/16 12:28 PM
09/21/16 12:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 839
CA, USA
paulri Offline OP
paulri  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 839
CA, USA
I just got off the phone with OAI. They said that I would have to purchase a UOA kit ($27 for Amsoil Preferred Customers) first, send in the sample, and then order a particle count for another 27 bucks. The person I talked to was inclined to think that they actually do a count of all the particle size groups, but wasn't certain. But for $54 plus the price of a PC account, I think I'll go elsewhere to get my particle counts.


2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 156,000 miles
1998 Honda Civic DX; 202,000 miles
Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri] #4640268
01/19/18 06:27 PM
01/19/18 06:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,406
Atlanta
DuckRyder Offline
DuckRyder  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,406
Atlanta
paulri,

Did you ever find a vender that could provide the particle count/ISO cleanliness value? Did you talk to Analysts Inc.

Apparently the filter analysis is no longer performed for individuals, any one found a similar service...?


Robert
  • 2007 Toyota Prius Touring
  • 2005 Honda Civic Sedan
  • 1972 Ford F100
Re: Particle Counts [Re: DuckRyder] #4642357
01/21/18 09:53 PM
01/21/18 09:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 103
Washington
DrDave Offline
DrDave  Offline
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 103
Washington
Analysts does particle count at no additional charge. I buy the premium kits from them. Particle count is quite informative.

Dave

Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri] #4642554
01/22/18 07:41 AM
01/22/18 07:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,406
Atlanta
DuckRyder Offline
DuckRyder  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,406
Atlanta
Analysts appears to now be Bureau Veritas...

They seem to include TAN as well...

Might give this a try, it’ll take me a while to use 10, and being singly isn’t exactly the best deal...


Robert
  • 2007 Toyota Prius Touring
  • 2005 Honda Civic Sedan
  • 1972 Ford F100
Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri] #4644631
01/24/18 07:01 AM
01/24/18 07:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,406
Atlanta
DuckRyder Offline
DuckRyder  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,406
Atlanta
Wow, sorry auto correct must have changed “buying” to “being”.

Napa/Wix sells a kit that includes particle counts but ALS (at least ATL lab) apparently can’t do particle counts on engine oil. (I’m not sure why it makes a difference what the fluid is)

I’m on the fence about Analyst IF I could try a couple kits at the 10 pack rate I might...


Robert
  • 2007 Toyota Prius Touring
  • 2005 Honda Civic Sedan
  • 1972 Ford F100
Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri] #4645004
01/24/18 02:42 PM
01/24/18 02:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,909
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,909
Upper Midwest
Can anyone explain just how a particle count as part of a UOA is useful, other than to perhaps indicate a completely ineffective filter? This is a serious question as I can't get my head wrapped around how most particle counts wouldn't be low. Even filters with relatively low filtering efficiencies will capture particles eventually and within a fairly short number of passes (at least when compared to how often the oil is circulated through the filter per hour). Sure you have to have a larger number of passes to get a very high probability, but even at a lower probability it may catch the particle in a single pass.

So unless you happen to fortuitously sample the oil within the pass where a particular particle may not have been captured, why wouldn't every particle count analysis show a low count? I understand how ISO filtration tests work, I just don't get how particle counts as part of a UOA are useful (unless as I said, they might show that the filtration is completely ineffective).


1994 BMW 530i, 229K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 402K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 272K
Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri] #4645115
01/24/18 04:35 PM
01/24/18 04:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,406
Atlanta
DuckRyder Offline
DuckRyder  Offline
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 4,406
Atlanta
Have a look here:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4131246/Amsoil_EA15K51_-_42,938_miles_#Post4131246

(Note this is not my data, I posted it for someone else)

Also the vendor will no longer do filter analysis for “non-fleet” customers, if anyone was thinking of having it done.

Also, there are some past post here where folks have done this and DID see a difference in filters, though there are questions about the accuracy... I would have to re-google to link them.


Robert
  • 2007 Toyota Prius Touring
  • 2005 Honda Civic Sedan
  • 1972 Ford F100
Re: Particle Counts [Re: kschachn] #4645323
01/24/18 08:24 PM
01/24/18 08:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,761
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,761
PNW
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Even filters with relatively low filtering efficiencies will capture particles eventually and within a fairly short number of passes (at least when compared to how often the oil is circulated through the filter per hour). Sure you have to have a larger number of passes to get a very high probability, but even at a lower probability it may catch the particle in a single pass.

If an oil filter ISO tests at 50% @ 20 microns it will theoretically take many more trips through the filter to clean the same dirty oil to the same cleanliness as one pass on a 99% @ 20 micron filter (example below). It's all the extra round-and-round trips of the particles through the engine that cause increased wear.

Plus, lower efficiency oil filters just can't retain much of the debris below 20 microns, which are the particles that contribute to the most engine wear. In the example below, 100 times more particles (1,000,000 vs 10,000) went through the oiling system with the 50% @ 20 microns filter, and took 5 times the trips through the filter to clean up the oil.


Re: Particle Counts [Re: ZeeOSix] #4645618
01/25/18 07:49 AM
01/25/18 07:49 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,909
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,909
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Even filters with relatively low filtering efficiencies will capture particles eventually and within a fairly short number of passes (at least when compared to how often the oil is circulated through the filter per hour). Sure you have to have a larger number of passes to get a very high probability, but even at a lower probability it may catch the particle in a single pass.

If an oil filter ISO tests at 50% @ 20 microns it will theoretically take many more trips through the filter to clean the same dirty oil to the same cleanliness as one pass on a 99% @ 20 micron filter (example below). It's all the extra round-and-round trips of the particles through the engine that cause increased wear.

Plus, lower efficiency oil filters just can't retain much of the debris below 20 microns, which are the particles that contribute to the most engine wear. In the example below, 100 times more particles (1,000,000 vs 10,000) went through the oiling system with the 50% @ 20 microns filter, and took 5 times the trips through the filter to clean up the oil.

Well yeah you've already convinced me to the utility of using a high efficiency filter for preventing wear, we don't need to hash that out anymore. I've changed my mind on that one. But in your second example, I don't argue with the math either but just how many particles are we talking about floating around in the oil at any given point in time? My question was how a UOA with particle count would show anything of relevance, given the large number of passes that will be seen prior to the drain and analysis. I'm good on wear, but again what exactly does a particle count show as part of a UOA? Are there really millions of particles being generated in such a short period of time that due to a low efficiency filter you will see them in suspension giving you a relevant number from your analysis?


1994 BMW 530i, 229K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 402K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 272K
Re: Particle Counts [Re: DuckRyder] #4645623
01/25/18 07:54 AM
01/25/18 07:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,909
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,909
Upper Midwest
I had forgotten about that thread, thanks for the reminder. I guess there was no real conclusion about particle counts as part of a UOA then either.

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Have a look here:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4131246/Amsoil_EA15K51_-_42,938_miles_#Post4131246

(Note this is not my data, I posted it for someone else)

Also the vendor will no longer do filter analysis for “non-fleet” customers, if anyone was thinking of having it done.

Also, there are some past post here where folks have done this and DID see a difference in filters, though there are questions about the accuracy... I would have to re-google to link them.


1994 BMW 530i, 229K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 402K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 272K
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