Recent Topics
E4OD fluid ?
by Exhaustgases
4 minutes 58 seconds ago
Update password ?
by meadows
Yesterday at 11:59 PM
Delayed Sleep Phase Disorder
by Reddy45
Yesterday at 11:56 PM
Nissan DLR put 0w20 in car that specs 5w30. worry?
by CrAlt
Yesterday at 10:40 PM
revive Nicd battery
by Donald
Yesterday at 10:27 PM
Need help finding an apartment for friend
by RazorsEdge
Yesterday at 10:07 PM
ceratec with redline 5w30?
by 08z06
Yesterday at 09:53 PM
does your COMCAST modem have weak wifi??
by edwardh1
Yesterday at 09:50 PM
I hate stuck thermostats
by jakewells
Yesterday at 09:49 PM
Mag1 75w90
by SavagePatch
Yesterday at 09:32 PM
Old batteries at HD
by bbhero
Yesterday at 09:27 PM
Buying a CPO Toyota - still get inspected?
by Parlay_Slow
Yesterday at 09:08 PM
Water Pump Paper Gasket With RTV? Longevity?
by nobb
Yesterday at 08:22 PM
Who makes Briggs & Stratton oil?
by spk2000
Yesterday at 08:13 PM
Shure stylus replacement
by aquariuscsm
Yesterday at 07:54 PM
Any 'crazy UCL overdose' fans out there?
by addyguy
Yesterday at 07:11 PM
Source for Castrol Edge Supercar 5w50 oil?
by Rainier42
Yesterday at 06:50 PM
Cherry vs orange hand cleaner
by JHZR2
Yesterday at 06:27 PM
Why buy low mileage tires?
by HowAboutThis
Yesterday at 05:49 PM
Mercury 35-8M0065104 cut open w/ oil change pics
by dlundblad
Yesterday at 05:37 PM
Newest Members
mostdecent, T1TN, Piper58, dunlop0078, Truth_Syrup
65258 Registered Users
Who's Online
19 registered (Exhaustgases, dishdude, ctechbob, Chris B., E365, edwardh1, 1 invisible), 765 Guests and 43 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
65258 Members
67 Forums
285503 Topics
4764682 Posts

Max Online: 3590 @ 01/24/17 08:07 PM
Donate to BITOG
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#4206604 - 09/19/16 02:01 PM Particle Counts
paulri Offline


Registered: 08/14/15
Posts: 752
Loc: CA, USA
I just installed my first M1 filter. Since I will be doing more than one oil change during this time, I'm thinking I might want to do particle counts for the oil at each oil change, and see how the filter is functioning.

I know that Dr. Dave did his with Analysts, Inc. I'll call this week to get prices. What other places do a particle count that does a full count (and not just one group of particles, with an extrapolation for the rest of the numbers)?
_________________________
2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 148,000 miles
1998 Honda Civic DX; 197,000 miles

Top
#4206692 - 09/19/16 04:36 PM Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri]
btanchors Offline


Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 761
Loc: Herndon, VA
paulri,

I tried this and attempted to use Blackstone's particle count analysis to compare different brands of premium filters a few years ago. I know Blackstone's particle count methodology does not provide what you are looking for. In the end, although I tried to control as many variables as I could, I could not establish a clear and repeatable conclusion. Perhaps another company might utilize and provide actual particle counts for all the ranges rather than the extrapolation like Blackstone.

I am interested in your project and wish you luck - I am looking forward to see any results you might have.

Top
#4206797 - 09/19/16 06:42 PM Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri]
Bebop367 Offline


Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 347
Loc: Louisiana
See link below. I am not sure if this meets what you are looking for......Good Luck

https://test.secure.touchnet.net:8443/C21797test_ustores/web/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCTID=108

Top
#4206825 - 09/19/16 07:12 PM Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri]
Donald Offline


Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 20446
Loc: Upstate NY
Get done at Polaris Lab. They do the private label for OAI.
_________________________
2015 Subaru Forester 2.5 engine/CVT
2015 Ford F250 w/Powerstroke
2016 Subaru Crosstrek CVT (wife's)


Top
#4207561 - 09/20/16 05:15 PM Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri]
paulri Offline


Registered: 08/14/15
Posts: 752
Loc: CA, USA
Interesting. The link given above by bebop367 is for Wichita State University, which does offer a particle count for $22. I wonder if anyone has purchased any from them—what their experience was?

This link (http://polarislabs.biz/lubricants1.aspx) is the consumer division for Polaris. Their basic particle count is in a pack of 10, for $151. If I want at least 7, then Polaris is the way to go. 151 seems a bit more than I wanted to shell out for this, however.

I would need at least 2 for each car, for any given FCI. But I’m not sure I just want to keep doing this again and again...

I found OAI (Amsoil's analysis division: http://www.oaitesting.com/services.aspx) and called too late in the day. I will add their info to this thread when I can get ahold of them.


Edited by paulri (09/20/16 05:16 PM)
_________________________
2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 148,000 miles
1998 Honda Civic DX; 197,000 miles

Top
#4208203 - 09/21/16 12:28 PM Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri]
paulri Offline


Registered: 08/14/15
Posts: 752
Loc: CA, USA
I just got off the phone with OAI. They said that I would have to purchase a UOA kit ($27 for Amsoil Preferred Customers) first, send in the sample, and then order a particle count for another 27 bucks. The person I talked to was inclined to think that they actually do a count of all the particle size groups, but wasn't certain. But for $54 plus the price of a PC account, I think I'll go elsewhere to get my particle counts.
_________________________
2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 148,000 miles
1998 Honda Civic DX; 197,000 miles

Top
#4640268 - 01/19/18 05:27 PM Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri]
DuckRyder Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 4206
Loc: Atlanta
paulri,

Did you ever find a vender that could provide the particle count/ISO cleanliness value? Did you talk to Analysts Inc.

Apparently the filter analysis is no longer performed for individuals, any one found a similar service...?
_________________________
Robert
  • 2007 Toyota Prius Touring
  • 2005 Honda Civic Sedan
  • 1972 Ford F100

Top
#4642357 - 01/21/18 08:53 PM Re: Particle Counts [Re: DuckRyder]
DrDave Offline


Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 96
Loc: Washington
Analysts does particle count at no additional charge. I buy the premium kits from them. Particle count is quite informative.

Dave

Top
#4642554 - 01/22/18 06:41 AM Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri]
DuckRyder Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 4206
Loc: Atlanta
Analysts appears to now be Bureau Veritas...

They seem to include TAN as well...

Might give this a try, it’ll take me a while to use 10, and being singly isn’t exactly the best deal...
_________________________
Robert
  • 2007 Toyota Prius Touring
  • 2005 Honda Civic Sedan
  • 1972 Ford F100

Top
#4644631 - 01/24/18 06:01 AM Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri]
DuckRyder Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 4206
Loc: Atlanta
Wow, sorry auto correct must have changed “buying” to “being”.

Napa/Wix sells a kit that includes particle counts but ALS (at least ATL lab) apparently can’t do particle counts on engine oil. (I’m not sure why it makes a difference what the fluid is)

I’m on the fence about Analyst IF I could try a couple kits at the 10 pack rate I might...
_________________________
Robert
  • 2007 Toyota Prius Touring
  • 2005 Honda Civic Sedan
  • 1972 Ford F100

Top
#4645004 - 01/24/18 01:42 PM Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 9369
Loc: Upper Midwest
Can anyone explain just how a particle count as part of a UOA is useful, other than to perhaps indicate a completely ineffective filter? This is a serious question as I can't get my head wrapped around how most particle counts wouldn't be low. Even filters with relatively low filtering efficiencies will capture particles eventually and within a fairly short number of passes (at least when compared to how often the oil is circulated through the filter per hour). Sure you have to have a larger number of passes to get a very high probability, but even at a lower probability it may catch the particle in a single pass.

So unless you happen to fortuitously sample the oil within the pass where a particular particle may not have been captured, why wouldn't every particle count analysis show a low count? I understand how ISO filtration tests work, I just don't get how particle counts as part of a UOA are useful (unless as I said, they might show that the filtration is completely ineffective).
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 227K
1996 Honda Accord, 262K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 394K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 267K

Top
#4645115 - 01/24/18 03:35 PM Re: Particle Counts [Re: paulri]
DuckRyder Offline


Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 4206
Loc: Atlanta
Have a look here:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4131246/Amsoil_EA15K51_-_42,938_miles_#Post4131246

(Note this is not my data, I posted it for someone else)

Also the vendor will no longer do filter analysis for “non-fleet” customers, if anyone was thinking of having it done.

Also, there are some past post here where folks have done this and DID see a difference in filters, though there are questions about the accuracy... I would have to re-google to link them.
_________________________
Robert
  • 2007 Toyota Prius Touring
  • 2005 Honda Civic Sedan
  • 1972 Ford F100

Top
#4645323 - 01/24/18 07:24 PM Re: Particle Counts [Re: kschachn]
ZeeOSix Offline


Registered: 07/22/10
Posts: 17762
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Even filters with relatively low filtering efficiencies will capture particles eventually and within a fairly short number of passes (at least when compared to how often the oil is circulated through the filter per hour). Sure you have to have a larger number of passes to get a very high probability, but even at a lower probability it may catch the particle in a single pass.

If an oil filter ISO tests at 50% @ 20 microns it will theoretically take many more trips through the filter to clean the same dirty oil to the same cleanliness as one pass on a 99% @ 20 micron filter (example below). It's all the extra round-and-round trips of the particles through the engine that cause increased wear.

Plus, lower efficiency oil filters just can't retain much of the debris below 20 microns, which are the particles that contribute to the most engine wear. In the example below, 100 times more particles (1,000,000 vs 10,000) went through the oiling system with the 50% @ 20 microns filter, and took 5 times the trips through the filter to clean up the oil.


Top
#4645618 - 01/25/18 06:49 AM Re: Particle Counts [Re: ZeeOSix]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 9369
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Even filters with relatively low filtering efficiencies will capture particles eventually and within a fairly short number of passes (at least when compared to how often the oil is circulated through the filter per hour). Sure you have to have a larger number of passes to get a very high probability, but even at a lower probability it may catch the particle in a single pass.

If an oil filter ISO tests at 50% @ 20 microns it will theoretically take many more trips through the filter to clean the same dirty oil to the same cleanliness as one pass on a 99% @ 20 micron filter (example below). It's all the extra round-and-round trips of the particles through the engine that cause increased wear.

Plus, lower efficiency oil filters just can't retain much of the debris below 20 microns, which are the particles that contribute to the most engine wear. In the example below, 100 times more particles (1,000,000 vs 10,000) went through the oiling system with the 50% @ 20 microns filter, and took 5 times the trips through the filter to clean up the oil.

Well yeah you've already convinced me to the utility of using a high efficiency filter for preventing wear, we don't need to hash that out anymore. I've changed my mind on that one. But in your second example, I don't argue with the math either but just how many particles are we talking about floating around in the oil at any given point in time? My question was how a UOA with particle count would show anything of relevance, given the large number of passes that will be seen prior to the drain and analysis. I'm good on wear, but again what exactly does a particle count show as part of a UOA? Are there really millions of particles being generated in such a short period of time that due to a low efficiency filter you will see them in suspension giving you a relevant number from your analysis?
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 227K
1996 Honda Accord, 262K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 394K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 267K

Top
#4645623 - 01/25/18 06:54 AM Re: Particle Counts [Re: DuckRyder]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 9369
Loc: Upper Midwest
I had forgotten about that thread, thanks for the reminder. I guess there was no real conclusion about particle counts as part of a UOA then either.

Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
Have a look here:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4131246/Amsoil_EA15K51_-_42,938_miles_#Post4131246

(Note this is not my data, I posted it for someone else)

Also the vendor will no longer do filter analysis for “non-fleet” customers, if anyone was thinking of having it done.

Also, there are some past post here where folks have done this and DID see a difference in filters, though there are questions about the accuracy... I would have to re-google to link them.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 227K
1996 Honda Accord, 262K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 394K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 267K

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >