Army's new sidearm

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Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Alfred_B
Originally Posted By: Al
I importance of sidearm type is on a scale of 1 to 10 a "1". And really the need for a sidearm is zero.


Is everyone issued the side arm or only the officers?


Military police, special operations people, intelligence types, certain crews of vehicles and aircraft, snipers (AFAIK), and certain support troops such as mortar crews have often been issued sidearms. They're also useful in policing occupied areas...


As an army Sapper (combat engineer) we were trained in pistols for tunnel-rat type jobs. We used 9mm Browning Hi-Powers.
 
LOL
lol.gif
 
My 9mm handgun cost $300 new and fires a fmj round over 1200fps. I wish the US military would see the economics AND viability of the 9mm....they will probably end up with .25's
 
I'm not a 9mm fan if we're talking military ball rounds. Now, we signed on to the 1899 Hague convention, so we are bound not to use ammunition that expands or has a modified point, so we are stuck with ball ammo...

That said, the Beretta is a good pistol. The 35,000 round reliability test, for example, wasn't met by many of the competitors. It's reasonably accurate, has good capacity and is very reliable.

All the M9 bashing you read about is coming from a very few folks who dislike it. The 1911 and the M1 Garand had their very vocal detractors as well. In looking for a new service pistol, it's largely because the Berettas are worn out and the Army needs to buy new guns. A lot of new guns.

The Sig Sauer M-11 that the USN bought for pilots (and other units), and with which I'm familiar, is a good, reasonably compact service pistol, but it's not cheap and the Army needs to buy hundreds of thousands of guns, so cost matters.

So does inventory and spare parts. The logistics tail has to be a factor in the decision. A substantial part of the contract will be spare parts inventory and distribution.
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
......In looking for a new service pistol, it's largely because the Berettas are worn out and the Army needs to buy new guns. A lot of new guns.

The Sig Sauer M-11 that the USN bought for pilots (and other units), and with which I'm familiar, is a good, reasonably compact service pistol, but it's not cheap and the Army needs to buy hundreds of thousands of guns, so cost matters.

So does inventory and spare parts. The logistics tail has to be a factor in the decision. A substantial part of the contract will be spare parts inventory and distribution.


Has the military determined what parts exactly have "worn out" on the Beretta's? I'm wondering if they will shy away from Aluminum framed guns this time around? The Glock runs on steel rails, and has a very high round count reputation. I've heard Glock offers unbelievable deals to police and law enforcement, because of their low production cost. Along with very high profitability from civilian sales. And in a Glock there are very few parts to actually "wear out". And they are very cheap as well, to keep supplied.

I heard when they gave the military contract to Beretta back in the 80's, one of the provisions were they wanted the pistol to be manufactured here. That's how the big, multi million dollar Accokeek, Maryland Beretta plant came into being. Glock already has a manufacturing plant in New Smyrna, Georgia. And are producing and selling American made Glocks from there. So they already meet that criteria.
 
Originally Posted By: Balrog006
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
In the military the only time you should be using a pistol is to get back to the long gun you should have never put down in the first place.

Paraphrasing the late Jeff Cooper here.


Yeah, in the field maybe. But sidearms have their uses and there is certainly a need for them. I sometimes carried the Beretta and it was okay, but I never felt like it was the best choice the Army could have made. I don't think special operators use it much, and I think the SEAL's have a saying: "you ain't a real Navy SEAL until you've had a mouth full of Italian steel" - after an incident where a slide came off an M9 breaking a SEAL's jaw...


SEAL's use a H&K .45 ACP

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_HK45


While the Beretta M9 has been the Army’s pistol since 1985, the military uses other handguns, particularly in special operations. Green Berets regularly use Glock 9mm pistols, and last year Marine Special Operations allowed use of the 9mm Glock 19 in addition to the .45-caliber Colt 1911. Navy SEALs generally use the Sig Sauer P226 and, on occasion, Heckler & Koch's .45-caliber HK45C.

“We’re not figuring out the next lunar landing. This is a pistol. Two years to test? At $17 million?” (Army Chief) Milley said to an audience at a Washington, D.C., think tank on March 10. “You give me $17 million on a credit card, and I’ll call Cabela’s tonight, and I’ll outfit every soldier, sailor, airman and Marine with a pistol for $17 million. And I’ll get a discount on a bulk buy.”
 
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Originally Posted By: billt460
Astro, were all fighter pilots in the Navy issued the Beretta 9 MM?


Not until 2002 when we went into Afghanistan were we issued any 9mm, and then it was the M11.

A full size pistol doesn't really fit into the flight gear well...our gear was designed for a smaller pistol.

For Gulf war 1 (Desert Storm) we were issued S&W Chief's Specials. Yep, a 5 shot .38 revolver. Compact little thing...probably kept in some armory since Korea and Vietnam...so, like many others, I bought and carried a personal weapon. I chose the S&W 5906 - a stainless DA/SA 9mm with 15+1 capacity. The Parachute Riggers made me a custom holster and magazine holder that fit into my flight gear.

For Bosnia, in 1995, the Navy still had those .38s...but an enterprising Gunner (Squadron Ordnance LDO) had managed to find some 1911s...also probably in the armory since Korea given the state of the barrel bushings and bluing...and, lo and behold, the Colt fit perfectly into my old holster. So, we carried those.

The M11 is a fine pistol - and would be my first choice among the pistols listed above. When I was with a Reserve TACRON (Amphibious Air Control Unit), the Active Duty TACRON had the M11 and I got the majority of my reserve folks qualified with it. For expeditionary operations, we were expected to have the sidearms as well as the M-4 carbine. As the "old guy" on the range when we were shooting, I garnered a bit of scrutiny, of course, but managed to post a 239/240 score...not bad for my first time shooting the Sig.

I've been a fan of that particular pistol ever since.

I prefer the .45ACP as a round for service use because we are talking about ball rounds, but that Sig is a nice gun.
 
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Bill - the Glock would be a great choice - it's reliable, inexpensive (what LE agencies pay would make you cry..it's less than half of what we pay retail) and made here.

My understanding is that everything is worn out on the Berettas, no doubt the frames are getting loose, but the barrels are worn, too. Shooting a gun in a sandy environment wears it quickly.

I'm with the General - you just about could buy every new pistol that the Army needs for the $17million study cost. For $17 million, you could get 100,000+ Glocks and a pile of spare parts and magazines.

But what would all the procurement specialists, compliance officers, bureaucrats and the contractors that support them, do to justify their jobs in that case?
 
Originally Posted By: Astro14
But what would all the procurement specialists, compliance officers, bureaucrats and the contractors that support them, do to justify their jobs in that case?


Exactly. It's the same, "good old boy's club", in the military that exists with all of the Washington politicians. The same one's Trump has been talking about for the last year. And why so many Republican old timers are against him. This takes place from the highest positions, right down to the lowest level of government in these small towns. A difficult and persistent vermin to kill off.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
..Let special forces units pick whatever sidearm they think gives them an advantage.


I'm pretty sure they do and have large armories and access to weapons, including captured ones...

Quote:
Everyone else, like MPs, would be well served with whatever US made modern police service style 9mm we could get for the best price in bulk.


Yeah, but I think they want a standardized arm for cost and training purposes. I think I read they were thinking of dropping the 9X19mm. I can only guess there isn't much need to have standardized pistol bullets as much as rifle ammo in NATO..
 
Kind of an "Us vs. Them" pattern emerging with all this tossing about of the slang "Civvy" for civilian members of the population? Let us not forget that this Republic, by design, maintains civilian oversight of the military. For good reason. So, us civilians are technically your bosses !!
eek.gif
Or at least those whom we elect into the Legislative and Executive branches of the government have as among their duties, regulation of the military.

The Us versus Them mentality needs to end in all areas of our society, we're way too divided lately. Please don't promulgate it further in the sense of the general population and the military. We're all represented by the same flag, okay?
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Al
I importance of sidearm type is on a scale of 1 to 10 a "1". And really the need for a sidearm is zero.


Pilots & aircrews? MP's/SP's? Ship crewman? Special operations? Um, yeah there is a need for pistols.

Originally Posted By: hatt
Whatever we do it's for sure going to cost millions more than it should have. Let special forces units pick whatever sidearm they think gives them an advantage. Everyone else, like MPs, would be well served with whatever US made modern police service style 9mm we could get for the best price in bulk.

This.
My real point was that as mentioned the Special Forces choose their own weapons. The rest can do with any ';ol pistol. Selecting a new pistol shouldn't be rocket science. It would be almost impossible to select one that would be unsuitable.
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Kind of an "Us vs. Them" pattern emerging with all this tossing about of the slang "Civvy" for civilian members of the population? Let us not forget that this Republic, by design, maintains civilian oversight of the military. For good reason. So, us civilians are technically your bosses !!
eek.gif
Or at least those whom we elect into the Legislative and Executive branches of the government have as among their duties, regulation of the military.

The Us versus Them mentality needs to end in all areas of our society, we're way too divided lately. Please don't promulgate it further in the sense of the general population and the military. We're all represented by the same flag, okay?



As someone who grew up next to a military base I can tell you that the us vs them mentality is nothing new for military personnel. However most outgrow that after they've been enlisted for some time. Unfortunately the loud and obnoxious always draw more attention than the good and respectful within any group of people.
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger

The Us versus Them mentality needs to end in all areas of our society, we're way too divided lately. Please don't promulgate it further in the sense of the general population and the military.


Well said, and I'll pull my head in as required.
However when I said "civy B_S", I was referring to the sniggering in the ranks, not to any particular person. Maybe I should have said "childish" (ageist ?) or simply "silly B-S". NickD was embracing diversity, and I think a person should be judged by their attitude and the quality of their work, not by a stereotype. It looked to me like he was standing up for people he knew (not in the biblical sense) who had not been given a fair go, so I stood beside him (and still do).

Anyway, back on track, Astro14 I was interested to hear you were issued with old 5 shot 38 specials, I thought stuff like that only happened in the Aussie army. Our 9mm BHP are '60's vintage and definitely did a few tours of Vietnam. A good collectors piece, but definitely time for something new. BTW I too am getting out this year.
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Kind of an "Us vs. Them" pattern emerging with all this tossing about of the slang "Civvy" for civilian members of the population? Let us not forget that this Republic, by design, maintains civilian oversight of the military. For good reason. So, us civilians are technically your bosses !!
eek.gif
Or at least those whom we elect into the Legislative and Executive branches of the government have as among their duties, regulation of the military.

The Us versus Them mentality needs to end in all areas of our society, we're way too divided lately. Please don't promulgate it further in the sense of the general population and the military. We're all represented by the same flag, okay?



I don't disagree with anything you've said....
 
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger

The Us versus Them mentality needs to end in all areas of our society, we're way too divided lately. Please don't promulgate it further in the sense of the general population and the military.


Well said, and I'll pull my head in as required.
However when I said "civy B_S", I was referring to the sniggering in the ranks, not to any particular person. Maybe I should have said "childish" (ageist ?) or simply "silly B-S". NickD was embracing diversity, and I think a person should be judged by their attitude and the quality of their work, not by a stereotype. It looked to me like he was standing up for people he knew (not in the biblical sense) who had not been given a fair go, so I stood beside him (and still do).

Anyway, back on track, Astro14 I was interested to hear you were issued with old 5 shot 38 specials, I thought stuff like that only happened in the Aussie army. Our 9mm BHP are '60's vintage and definitely did a few tours of Vietnam. A good collectors piece, but definitely time for something new. BTW I too am getting out this year.


There were a lot of leftovers from WWII when they simply couldn't make handguns fast enough and a variety of types were issued and used. I think the USAF did have revolvers until fairly late. I'm pretty sure there is still a large stock of M1911's still around...
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Astro, were all fighter pilots in the Navy issued the Beretta 9 MM?


The M11 (a Sig P228) last I heard.
 
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