High CCS viscosity with Group V oil ???

[ST2008]

I went to check some popular group V oil companies in their webpage about the oil specs. I notice the CCS viscosity (ASTM D-5293) of their oils is way higher than group III and IV oil. [censored] ??? Isn't the group V was God's chosen oil

. ?

https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=2&pcid=21

http://pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html

 

[MolaKule]

Why do you think some engine oils are predominately Group V oils?

 

[ST2008]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Why do you think some engine oils are predominately Group V oils?


It's what I understand that the base oils of Motul and Redline are made of Group V oil.

 

[HKPolice]

No where on the product page does it say Group V only. It's probably a mix of Group5 & 4. The HTHS vis of 3.7 is also higher than M1 0w40 @ 3.6 so technically this "5w30" is thicker than a 0w40 @ high temps.

Redline is formulated for racing applications, not cold weather performance. They're formulated with the thickest base possible while still meeting SAE winter grade specs.

If a Group 2 based SAE 30 oil was formulated with HTHS of 3.7, it would probably be impossible to hit SAE 5w spec, maybe 15w at best.

 

[MolaKule]

Regardless of advertising hype, current Full Synthetic Engine oils are a complex mixture of Group III, IV, and V base oils.

The only oils that are 100% pure ester are Jet Turbine oils.

 

[ST2008]

Originally Posted By: HKPolice
No where on the product page does it say Group V only. It's probably a mix of Group5 & 4. The HTHS vis of 3.7 is also higher than M1 0w40 @ 3.6 so technically this "5w30" is thicker than a 0w40 @ high temps.

Redline is formulated for racing applications, not cold weather performance. They're formulated with the thickest base possible while still meeting SAE winter grade specs.

If a Group 2 based SAE 30 oil was formulated with HTHS of 3.7, it would probably be impossible to hit SAE 5w spec, maybe 15w at best.


- The link about the redline 5W30 from my first post indicated that the oil is "designed" for road car and truck.


- These links indicate the principal base stock of Redline product is made of group V oil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4LPieAPIrU go to @27:30

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Line_Synthetic_Oil_Corporation#Products

 

[Popsy]

I'm not sure Motul is using much gr 5 on its oils anymore...

 

[SonofJoe]

Group V base oils (typically esters) generally have worse cold-flow properties than PAOs and the very best Group IIIs. If you do the comparison, you'll find that your ester based oil will contain more VII and have a higher Noack; both undesirable traits.
Speaking personally, I never thought that much of esters and I certainly wouldn't regard them as any kind of base oil Holy Grail.

 

[HKPolice]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Group V base oils (typically esters) generally have worse cold-flow properties than PAOs and the very best Group IIIs. If you do the comparison, you'll find that your ester based oil will contain more VII and have a higher Noack; both undesirable traits.
Speaking personally, I never thought that much of esters and I certainly wouldn't regard them as any kind of base oil Holy Grail.


Yep, found a good chart here:

Polyol ester is much worse than PAO @ low temps. The only benefit of an ester based oil is high temp performance. I think most people automatically assume Group 5 is better than 4 in every aspect.

LubeTech PDF

 

[Revving2Redline]

I'm far from a science guru, but isnt grp 5 for likely attracted to humidity and moisture? PAO flows better at cold climate,but is its film strength compromised to flow better? Seen some pure ester oil leftovers and my understanding was it will destroy car seals as its made for aviation only apps. Now in the Nevada desert or Middle East,I would run Grp 5 oil in a heartbeat. It does seem Grp 3 and 5 are closer on cold flow and at that point a Tier 1 Grp 3 is most likely better on value per dollar.
I said in mid 2000's I tried Neo Synthetic 10w30,AFAIK, it was a Di-Ester base and these charts show it to beat them all and its a Grp 5 I believe. Seems like I should have stayed with Neo Synthetic over Redline Oil but it was only sold on bakerprecision.com and Redline was at Advance Auto for 8.00 qt.

 

[BrocLuno]

Motul 300v is Ester. But it's really expensive. Best in air cooled race motors. Wouldn't run it in a water cooled street engine - ever.

What car? Mods to the engine? Driving style? Track days? Oil cooler? Need lots more info here ...

 

[Thebimmerfan]

Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Group V base oils (typically esters) generally have worse cold-flow properties than PAOs and the very best Group IIIs. If you do the comparison, you'll find that your ester based oil will contain more VII and have a higher Noack; both undesirable traits.
Speaking personally, I never thought that much of esters and I certainly wouldn't regard them as any kind of base oil Holy Grail.


Yep, found a good chart here:


Polyol ester is much worse than PAO @ low temps. The only benefit of an ester based oil is high temp performance. I think most people automatically assume Group 5 is better than 4 in every aspect


Esters have more benefits than only superb heat resistance. Esters are polar - they adhere to the engine parts surfaces, eliminating the risk of metal to metal contact, which by the other hand is the worst thing which can happen inside an engine.
An ester's downside is their quite short life - ester-based oils need to be changed more oftenly.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Thebimmerfan
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Group V base oils (typically esters) generally have worse cold-flow properties than PAOs and the very best Group IIIs. If you do the comparison, you'll find that your ester based oil will contain more VII and have a higher Noack; both undesirable traits.
Speaking personally, I never thought that much of esters and I certainly wouldn't regard them as any kind of base oil Holy Grail.


Yep, found a good chart here:


Polyol ester is much worse than PAO @ low temps. The only benefit of an ester based oil is high temp performance. I think most people automatically assume Group 5 is better than 4 in every aspect


Esters have more benefits than only superb heat resistance. Esters are polar - they adhere to the engine parts surfaces, eliminating the risk of metal to metal contact, which by the other hand is the worst thing which can happen inside an engine.
An ester's downside is their quite short life - ester-based oils need to be changed more oftenly.


And to imply other types of oil won't adhere to engine parts is deceptive. Most engines today last well over 200K with reasonable maintenance.

 

[Tom NJ]

There are numerous chemistry families in Group V, and many different products within a chemistry family. For example there are over 100 different esters used in lubrication with a broad range of properties. In the absence of ring compounds and waxes, the low temperature flow of a base oil is mainly a function of viscosity and VI. The viscosities of lubricant grade ester base oils range from 1 cSt @ 100C to >30cSt, and the VIs range from 200, so the low temperature properties can vary widely depending on which ester(s) you select.

Polyol esters have greater oxidative stability than PAOs due to fewer reactive hydrogens and can dissolve more anti-oxidant additives, so they will provide longer life at very high temperatures than PAOs. All jet engine oils are based solely on polyol esters for this reason. They also have much lower volatility and better cleanliness due to their polar nature. In automotive engines, balanced blends of different chemistries generally provide optimum performance.

Esters in Synthetic Lubricants

Tom NJ

 

[CATERHAM]

Hi Tom,

Could you elaborate briefly on how the polar nature of esters is the reason for their low volatility and cleanliness?
Are some esters more polar than others?
Being electonegative, presumably the only metal they are attracted to are ferrous in nature? No attraction to aluminium alloys?

 

[SonofJoe]

It's true that esters can stick to metal surfaces but that isn't always a good thing. If ester out competes ZDDP to get to the metal, then you can find yourself with major wear problems. I've seen this very thing happen in a PAO/Ester based oil than chewed through cams like the ZDDP wasn't there!

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Hi Tom,

Could you elaborate briefly on how the polar nature of esters is the reason for their low volatility and cleanliness?
Are some esters more polar than others?
Being electonegative, presumably the only metal they are attracted to are ferrous in nature? No attraction to aluminium alloys?


the polar nature makes the ester molecules attract each other, preventing low volatility. And they also cover most metal surfaces, preventing deposits.

Yes, polarity is less if there's a longer hydrocarbon tail on the polar head so heavier molecular weight esters are less polar.

and I forgot which now, but ester like aluminium but not aluminium oxide, or vice versa.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Group V base oils (typically esters) generally have worse cold-flow properties than PAOs and the very best Group IIIs. If you do the comparison, you'll find that your ester based oil will contain more VII and have a higher Noack; both undesirable traits.
Speaking personally, I never thought that much of esters and I certainly wouldn't regard them as any kind of base oil Holy Grail.


Yep, found a good chart here:

Polyol ester is much worse than PAO @ low temps. The only benefit of an ester based oil is high temp performance. I think most people automatically assume Group 5 is better than 4 in every aspect.

LubeTech PDF


That table couldn't be more misleading if it was on purpose!

the KV is measured in cSt, and the CCS in cP. The difference is the density of the fluid being measured. PAO has a low density and for the same cSt gives a 23% lower cP number than apolyol ester. also, the CCS measures resistance created by the oil film, and then the traction coefficient comes into play. PAO has a very low traction coefficient compared to mineral and some polyol esters.

 

[SonofJoe]

In fairness, the entire world and his dog measures KV in cst and CCS in cP. I don't think for one second this was in anyway an attempt to mislead the average BITOG reader...

 

[Jetronic]

no, but MRV instead of CCS would have been better... or HTHS vs CCS