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Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: HTSS_TR] #4196579 09/06/16 02:21 PM
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Tempest Offline
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There is always a cost to be payed when altering the market, and it's rarely payed by the politicians that do it.

Just look at the German photo-voltaic debacle as one example.

Removing arbitrary sums of money from productive people and allocating arbitrary sums of money to bolster entirely arbitrary "feel good" policies will not work out well...


“Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.” --- Henry Rosovsky
Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: Tempest] #4196656 09/06/16 04:35 PM
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HTSS_TR Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Tempest
There is always a cost to be payed when altering the market, and it's rarely payed by the politicians that do it.

Just look at the German photo-voltaic debacle as one example.

Removing arbitrary sums of money from productive people and allocating arbitrary sums of money to bolster entirely arbitrary "feel good" policies will not work out well...

Monetary cost is a zero sump, some get benefit(s) then someone else are paying for it. But the environment isn't a zero sump, Norway electricity are mostly clean with lot of Hydro and with more EV they should pollute less.


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Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: HTSS_TR] #4196659 09/06/16 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Tempest
There is always a cost to be payed when altering the market, and it's rarely payed by the politicians that do it.

Just look at the German photo-voltaic debacle as one example.

Removing arbitrary sums of money from productive people and allocating arbitrary sums of money to bolster entirely arbitrary "feel good" policies will not work out well...

Monetary cost is a zero sump, some get benefit(s) then someone else are paying for it. But the environment isn't a zero sump, Norway electricity are mostly clean with lot of Hydro and with more EV they should pollute less.


Yes, but as I posted earlier, they are an incredibly unique scenario given that basically all of their power is generated via hydro electric.


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Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: HTSS_TR] #4196663 09/06/16 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

Monetary cost is a zero sump, some get benefit(s) then someone else are paying for it. But the environment isn't a zero sump, Norway electricity are mostly clean with lot of Hydro and with more EV they should pollute less.


"Money" is just a tool used to allocate resources. Those resources (material, labor, energy) are the real cost (as opposed to price) of an economy.

Arbitrarily allocating resources to make politicians feel good about themselves never works out for the people actually footing the bill...

If there were real world, market driven reasons to buy EV, then the government shouldn't need to steel money from one person and hand it to another to entice people to buy them.


“Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.” --- Henry Rosovsky
Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: Tempest] #4196677 09/06/16 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

Monetary cost is a zero sump, some get benefit(s) then someone else are paying for it. But the environment isn't a zero sump, Norway electricity are mostly clean with lot of Hydro and with more EV they should pollute less.


"Money" is just a tool used to allocate resources. Those resources (material, labor, energy) are the real cost (as opposed to price) of an economy.

Arbitrarily allocating resources to make politicians feel good about themselves never works out for the people actually footing the bill...

If there were real world, market driven reasons to buy EV, then the government shouldn't need to steel money from one person and hand it to another to entice people to buy them.

Your point of let market decides the winner(s), this does have some valid points.

But, if environment is critical then let market decides winner may not work. Without incentives and with much limitations not many people will buy any EV, then the environment will be as dirty as it was.

Now, what are the benefits of cleaner air ? How much value do you think if Norway reduces COx by 20-30% ? That is the question the government of Norway tries to answer with the incentives they give to EV buyers.

The original post is about people behavior can be changed with enough incentives, some will take a risk if the incentives is adequate to them.

Last edited by HTSS_TR; 09/06/16 05:03 PM.

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Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: HTSS_TR] #4196681 09/06/16 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Now, what are the benefits of cleaner air ? How much value do you think if Norway reduces COx by 20-30% ?


COx is not a pollutant. That's the biggest scam in all of this. Reducing COx does what? It is an easy emission to target and that's why it is. The (legitimate) pollution generated by burning fossil fuels is the real issue and that covers a scope that is far broader than the one that focuses solely on carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide and then allows one to buy/sell "credits" so you can feel good about "saving the planet" smirk


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Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: HTSS_TR] #4196822 09/06/16 06:58 PM
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Makes me want to buy a full size SUV with a V8 engine. LOL!


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Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: HTSS_TR] #4197440 09/07/16 03:24 PM
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As cold as it can get in Norway i would want the heating and defrosting of a gasser.


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Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: HTSS_TR] #4197589 09/07/16 06:42 PM
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Norway's relationship to the environment and ethics is much more complicated.

I'm surprised none of you brought up the fact of the Norway Soverign fund, which has a value of $873Billion; which per citizen comes out to be $200,000 and is the wealthiest sovereign funds.

The fund is meant to provide for Norwegians in perpetuity given that it is a nonrenewable national resource that's being tapped. Given that it comes entirely from oil/petroleum reserves there is a layer of guilt related to the environment underlying the fund and that leads the government to choose to subsidize environmental things.

The Fund is also established with an ethics counsel involved which makes these decisions not based on a free market.

Last edited by raytseng; 09/07/16 06:44 PM.
Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: raytseng] #4198866 09/09/16 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: raytseng
Norway's relationship to the environment and ethics is much more complicated.

I'm surprised none of you brought up the fact of the Norway Soverign fund, which has a value of $873Billion; which per citizen comes out to be $200,000 and is the wealthiest sovereign funds.

The fund is meant to provide for Norwegians in perpetuity given that it is a nonrenewable national resource that's being tapped. Given that it comes entirely from oil/petroleum reserves there is a layer of guilt related to the environment underlying the fund and that leads the government to choose to subsidize environmental things.

The Fund is also established with an ethics counsel involved which makes these decisions not based on a free market.


Great point. For all this "care for the environment" talk, they export more oil per day than Canada. And nearly as much as Venezuela....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_exports

They appear to be perfectly happy for someone else to pollute, so long as the money keeps rolling in.


“Never underestimate the difficulty of changing false beliefs by facts.” --- Henry Rosovsky
Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: Tempest] #4198969 09/09/16 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted By: Tempest
Originally Posted By: raytseng
Norway's relationship to the environment and ethics is much more complicated.

I'm surprised none of you brought up the fact of the Norway Soverign fund, which has a value of $873Billion; which per citizen comes out to be $200,000 and is the wealthiest sovereign funds.

The fund is meant to provide for Norwegians in perpetuity given that it is a nonrenewable national resource that's being tapped. Given that it comes entirely from oil/petroleum reserves there is a layer of guilt related to the environment underlying the fund and that leads the government to choose to subsidize environmental things.

The Fund is also established with an ethics counsel involved which makes these decisions not based on a free market.


Great point. For all this "care for the environment" talk, they export more oil per day than Canada. And nearly as much as Venezuela....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_exports

They appear to be perfectly happy for someone else to pollute, so long as the money keeps rolling in.

I suppose if you look at it from a global scale, its better to produce oil in Norway that creates less greenhouse gas then production in the oil sands in Canada.
Also I'd rather see Norway as a country, get rich off of oil than a few people in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, etc. Dollars put into Norway's bank accounts aren't going to used to control its citizens or kill people in Syria.


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Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: HTSS_TR] #4199293 09/09/16 08:38 PM
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I'm guessing 28.4% of Norwegian BITOGers won't need to log on anymore...


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Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: double vanos] #4200132 09/10/16 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: double vanos
The minute they get a good choice of EVs in the $30k-40k price range that can go 300 miles on a charge and charge up in 15 minutes or less, I'm in. That's a big bill to fill but with they will get there. I'm tired of coolant flushes, tune ups, oil changes and everything else that comes with an internal combustion engine powered car!





Yes! I'm with you all the way on that one.


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Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: Shannow] #4200345 09/11/16 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Wow, let the taxpayer pay for your "free" charging and people adopt it en masse ?

Who would have thought that Human behaviour would do that ?

Wonder what the difference would be if it wasn't someone else's money paying for it ?

What's the delivery date on your S again ?




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Originally Posted By: raytseng
Norway's relationship to the environment and ethics is much more complicated.

I'm surprised none of you brought up the fact of the Norway Soverign fund, which has a value of $873Billion; which per citizen comes out to be $200,000 and is the wealthiest sovereign funds.

The fund is meant to provide for Norwegians in perpetuity given that it is a nonrenewable national resource that's being tapped. Given that it comes entirely from oil/petroleum reserves there is a layer of guilt related to the environment underlying the fund and that leads the government to choose to subsidize environmental things.

The Fund is also established with an ethics counsel involved which makes these decisions not based on a free market.



Let's not let facts get in the way. smile

Oh, by the way, if we did real CO2 measures, IE input versus output, even with our oil sands, the world would owe us TRILLIONS for all the scrubbing our boreal forests do... whistle



I have a very bad mem... What were we talking about again?
Re: No wonder Norway drivers bought more Electric Cars [Re: HTSS_TR] #4200616 09/11/16 01:39 PM
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Norway and all of the Nordic countries are all very envoirmentally friendly, i am Finnish which is officially the greenest country as of 2016, although i guess having a relatively small population helps : Norway 4.5 Million , Sweden 10 Million , Finland slightly over 5 Million, the population cares a lot about preserving the environment , you will see in these countries the streets are very clean, people don't litter the streets other than for a few cigarette butts, Sweden generates a lot of their own energy by burning their own trash! , in Finland logging companies have to plant a tree for each one they cut down, i think Norway might ban all Gasoline and Diesel powered cas in the future.... i know it's a bit off topic but it's just to make Americans understand the massively different mentality that we have.
Now let's not get into the debate about global warming otherwise this thread will NEEEVER end...


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