Idemitsu 0w20 or PP/M1 5w20?

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6-7K mile interval for a 2015 Corolla with below zero winters & stop/go traffic, which do you think is better?

The Idemitsu oil is from Subaru or Honda (yes Honda in Canada still uses Idemitsu for 0w20 whereas Honda USA uses CoP), both SN rated (no high moly)

I know the 0w20 will be better for cold starts, but I think PP/M1 5w20 will have higher TBN & better cleaning ability?
 
I have always liked Idemitsu, but for the applications in which I use it, it is quite expensive. If your car is a 2015, there shouldn't really be much to clean and if you're running only 7k miles, the TBN shouldn't matter much. You could run PYB 5w20 this long. Go with the cheapest 0w20 rated SN you can find and be happy! You could also do a VOA or UOA on idemitsu to see what the add packages look like. It may surprise you.
 
Can't use TGMO, still have a stash of Idemitsu, PP & M1 that has to be used first.

Winters in Toronto usually hover around -5C with occasional drops to -15C so I'm not sure if there are any benefits of 0w20 at all. I have half a spec sheet from Idemitsu themselves stating the CCS viscosity @ -35C is 5500 which isn't that good (max spec is 6200). M1 0w20 scores in the 4000 range http://www.pqiadata.org/Mobil10W20dexos.html

This is why I'm torn, I'm not sure if Idemitsu will benefit this application for cold starts at all. The specs of PP/M1 5w20 seem better in every other way.
 
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
6-7K mile interval for a 2015 Corolla with below zero winters & stop/go traffic, which do you think is better?

The Idemitsu oil is from Subaru or Honda (yes Honda in Canada still uses Idemitsu for 0w20 whereas Honda USA uses CoP), both SN rated (no high moly)

I know the 0w20 will be better for cold starts, but I think PP/M1 5w20 will have higher TBN & better cleaning ability?


I just hauled a 45,000 lb load of various Honda oils, trans fluids, diff lube, etc from Indemitsu out of the Jeffersonville, IN blending plant to a distributor in Omaha. Would seem they are still using Indemitsu for their stuff in US as well.
 
Did you actually see motor oil in the shipment? Idemitsu makes the Honda ATF, gear luve, and so on, so it wouldn't be hard to mistake what's moving unless you actually saw motor oil.
 
Well, as the driver hauling the load, I saw and carried with me the complete manifest packing list, 2 pages worth of product listings, about 30 items per page, of what was loaded in the trailer. I watched them load the trailer from the driver's area, so I didn't meticulously look over every pallet as it was loaded. I can't recall all that was on the load, and I didn't scrutinize every product in the load. but there was a very broad range of stuff including a lot of varieties of motor oils (a minimum of 4 types that I recall), ATF, CVT lube, diff lube, etc. Some in 55 drums, some in cases. Of course, I did not inspect every single case as it was loaded. The cases and drums were palletized. I don't have the list in front of me as I submitted it with customer delivery signature on it for payment. I don't haul loads for free.

As a side note, there were 15 loading docks and a constant stream of trucks coming in to load. they put out a lot of products there. And the warehouse is probably about 15 acres in size, not counting actual blending operation. I counted 42 bulk storage tanks on site.
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
If you're at all interested in brilliant fuel economy, go for the Idemitsu 0W20. I have a strong suspicion that it's formulated with PMA (Poly Methacrylate) VII polymer which accounts for it's unusually low KV40. It also appears to contain a tonne of Moly. There's a great comparison of 0W20's Volodymyr's recent post...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...ll_#Post4171211


Unfortunately not all Idemitsu 0w20 is formulated the same. The OEM 0w20 formula is only 169 VI just like most other retail 0w20 oils, with a TBN of 7.84. I wish I could buy Idemitsu ZePro 0w20 oil here because it looks amazing in every aspect!

Thanks for the link though, seems like TGMO isn't that impressive either with a high NOACK of over 13% and poor CCS of over 6400 which is technically out of spec for a 0w oil.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
...there was a very broad range of stuff including a lot of varieties of motor oils...


That's all I was asking about. Thanks.
 
Some people are decidedly weird! I make a few favourable comments about Idemitsu's 0W20 and suddenly some nut-job out there in Blog-land is using my 'endorsement' as proof positive that this is the best oil ever invented. Well just for you, whoever you are, here are a few things to mull over...

If I'm right, the Idemitsu 0W20 (the version described in Volodymyr's tables) is formulated with PMA VII. This is relatively rare as the bulk of the world's engine oils are formulated with OCP VII and a small percentage (typically top-tier oils) made with HSD VIIs. The reason PMAs are so unpopular is because they are polymerically very inefficient. You might need two to three times as much PMA polymer in an oil to achieve a given viscometric balance (as in KV100 & CCS). This assumes the PMA VII is a high (50+) SSI VII. If you move to a lower SSI PMA, they become even more inefficient. Poor efficiency means far higher cost. Also very high polymer loadings generally mean far more piston deposits, especially in diesel engines.

However high SSI PMAs are interesting in that for a fixed KV100 & CCS, they will yield a lower KV40 than either OCP or HSD. This manifests itself as an apparently high Viscosity Index (VI) but this is somewhat misleading as the VI, as defined over the wider viscosity range (say KV100 to CCS temperature), is the same for all VIIs. Low KV40 is however useful if you are looking to achieve fuel economy improvements, especially from cold start when FE is generally at its worst.

Japanese oils will often be put together with PMA VII and an abnormally high treat rate of Moly (1000 ppm is not unusual). Moly is a very effective friction modifier so the two things together tend to give some of the best FE oils, especially if slotted into the thinnest oils like 0W20's. However high treats of Moly have their downsides. First all Moly additives are crucifyingly expensive. Second, Moly additives often contain nitrogen (eg Moly Dithiocarbamates) and can, at high treat rates be very aggressive to Viton seals. In the days when I could blend my own oils for my own car, I shied away from using high treats of Moly even though the oil cost me nothing.

So, to sum up, if like me, you are obsessed with fuel economy and the need to stop global warming, drive everywhere at 55 mph max and never go above 2,200 rpm, you own a small, very cheap car which arrives new containing a 'free' sump-full of super expensive Idemitsu 0W20 then I heartily recommend you enjoy the FE benefits it gives you. However, if you have to pay for this uber-expensive oil with your own pennies, drive a diesel, drive fast and hot, are looking for something beyond simple SN/GF-5 and are looking to keep you car for the long term, then maybe this oil ISN'T for you.
 
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Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Some people are decidedly weird! I make a few favourable comments about Idemitsu's 0W20 and suddenly some nut-job out there in Blog-land is using my 'endorsement' as proof positive that this is the best oil ever invented.


HAhaha! That's funny, SoJ!
 
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