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What is the most stringent Euro specification now? #4174378 08/11/16 10:20 AM
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1JZ_E46 Offline OP
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For gas engines, what is the most stringent oil specification nowadays? I have heard LL-01 is now more difficult to pass with the new N20 engine test. What about Porsche A40? MB? Links to actual sources or people "in-the-know" would be great. -Chase


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4174385 08/11/16 10:23 AM
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https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html

I don't think they've included the latest revision to the LL-01 spec yet. I don't even know what exactly that revision entails. I tried asking BMW corporate, and all I got was dead silence.


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4174391 08/11/16 10:30 AM
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Thanks. I have used that tool before, but it hasn't changed in a while. The fact that M1 0W-40 "FS" passes A40 but fails LL-01 leads me to believe LL-01 is now a more (if not the most) stringent test.


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4174411 08/11/16 11:07 AM
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Yes, and if you do find out what exactly this new LL-01 spec entails, please do let us know.


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4174447 08/11/16 11:52 AM
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My VW diesels use an LL03 oil (VW 507).


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4174469 08/11/16 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Thanks. I have used that tool before, but it hasn't changed in a while. The fact that M1 0W-40 "FS" passes A40 but fails LL-01 leads me to believe LL-01 is now a more (if not the most) stringent test.


"Fails" or "is no longer tested to" LL-01? I suspect the latter is probable. It might fail it, but we don't know what we don't know. And XOM probably isn't telling, either.


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4174485 08/11/16 12:30 PM
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Just look for A3/B3-B4 spec. Can't get any tougher than this


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: deven] #4174491 08/11/16 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: deven
Just look for A3/B3-B4 spec. Can't get any tougher than this

Yes you certainly can.


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 440Magnum] #4174493 08/11/16 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Thanks. I have used that tool before, but it hasn't changed in a while. The fact that M1 0W-40 "FS" passes A40 but fails LL-01 leads me to believe LL-01 is now a more (if not the most) stringent test.


"Fails" or "is no longer tested to" LL-01? I suspect the latter is probable. It might fail it, but we don't know what we don't know. And XOM probably isn't telling, either.




Why would XOM opt to not have one of (if not the most) popular euro oils tested for LL-01? Think about it. Also, XOM has said (email to member here) that they do not meet the new LL-01 spec.

Last edited by 1JZ_E46; 08/11/16 12:36 PM.

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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4174537 08/11/16 01:21 PM
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I would caution against thinking that a better specified oil is the same thing as a 'better' oil in the broader sense of the word.

It puts me in mind of those times back in the '60s when The Cousins made great improvements in ballistic missile accuracy and would claim they could place a nuke on the steps of The Kremlin. You could honestly claim that the missile's 'specification' had greatly improved until you realise it's a multi megaton thermonuclear device with a ten mile kill radius and that a few yards difference in where it lands makes not one jot of difference!

Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Quattro Pete] #4174540 08/11/16 01:26 PM
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Solarent Offline
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Yes, and if you do find out what exactly this new LL-01 spec entails, please do let us know.


Here is some of the information you are looking for:

Originally Posted By: BMW Release Procedures

For differentiation purposes, the oil specifications are designated according to the year in which they were first used as:
"BMW Longlife-01, -01 FE" (2001),
"BMW Longlife-04" (2004),
"BMW Longlife-12 FE" (2012)
and "BMW Longlife-14 FE+" (2014).

The categories "BMW Longlife-01", "BMW Longlife-01 FE" and "BMW Longlife-14 FE+" as well as "BMW Longlife-04," and "BMW Longlife-12 FE" are qualitatively comparable but differ with regard to minimum viscosity at high oil temperatures (HTHS viscosity).

BMW Longlife-01 / -01 FE / -14 FE+ oils are only suitable for gasoline engines, while BMW Longlife-04 / -12 FE oils are suitable for diesel engines with
particulate filters, due to the reduced sulphate ash content.


LL-01 (ACEA A3/B4 base) requires the N20 performance test, N20 Aeration test and N42 Valvetronic RNT test
LL-01 FE (ACEA A5/B5 base) requires all the LL-01 tests plus the N20 Fuel Economy Test and has lower limits on HTHS and specifies a minimum KV100 of 10.0 and a minimum TBN of 10.0
LL-04 (ACEA C3 base) requires the same testing as LL-01
LL-12 FE (ACEA C2 base) requires all the same tests as LL-01 FE plus the N47 AATL carbonisation test and the N47 Fuel economy test. It also has even lower limits on HTHS and requires a minimum KV100 of 8.8 and a minimum TBN of 6.0
LL-14 FE+ (ACEA A1/B1 base) requires all the same testing of LL-01 FE but at minimums of HTHS 2.6, KV 7.8 and TBN 9.5

Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: SonofJoe] #4174542 08/11/16 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I would caution against thinking that a better specified oil is the same thing as a 'better' oil in the broader sense of the word.

It puts me in mind of those times back in the '60s when The Cousins made great improvements in ballistic missile accuracy and would claim they could place a nuke on the steps of The Kremlin. You could honestly claim that the missile's 'specification' had greatly improved until you realise it's a multi megaton thermonuclear device with a ten mile kill radius and that a few yards difference in where it lands makes not one jot of difference!


I totally agree. Use the oil that is specified for your vehicle.

Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Solarent] #4174553 08/11/16 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: Solarent
LL-01 (ACEA A3/B4 base) requires the N20 performance test, N20 Aeration test and N42 Valvetronic RNT test

Thanks. That much I know. That N20 test was introduced in 2012. Yet, M1 0w-40 stopped claiming the LL-01 approval only in late 2015. So what's changed within the last year?


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4174559 08/11/16 01:40 PM
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Is Porsche A40 a really tough specification?
There are MB 229.3 "only" oils that have the A40 spec confused


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Quattro Pete] #4174588 08/11/16 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Solarent
LL-01 (ACEA A3/B4 base) requires the N20 performance test, N20 Aeration test and N42 Valvetronic RNT test

Thanks. That much I know. That N20 test was introduced in 2012. Yet, M1 0w-40 stopped claiming the LL-01 approval only in late 2015. So what's changed within the last year?


Nothing has changed at BMW that I am aware of...

Is this the one you are talking about?
Or this one?

As near as I can tell there shouldn't be an issue with M1FS 0W40 meeting LL-01, it has the right base, high enough HTHS and it's not like the registrations fees are too crazy (expensive but not a big deal for someone like Mobil) maybe they let their release lapse and haven't renewed yet?

Last edited by Solarent; 08/11/16 02:13 PM.
Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Solarent] #4174598 08/11/16 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: Solarent
LL-01 (ACEA A3/B4 base) requires the N20 performance test, N20 Aeration test and N42 Valvetronic RNT test
LL-01 FE (ACEA A5/B5 base) requires all the LL-01 tests plus the N20 Fuel Economy Test and has lower limits on HTHS and specifies a minimum KV100 of 10.0 and a minimum TBN of 10.0
LL-04 (ACEA C3 base) requires the same testing as LL-01
LL-12 FE (ACEA C2 base) requires all the same tests as LL-01 FE plus the N47 AATL carbonisation test and the N47 Fuel economy test. It also has even lower limits on HTHS and requires a minimum KV100 of 8.8 and a minimum TBN of 6.0
LL-14 FE+ (ACEA A1/B1 base) requires all the same testing of LL-01 FE but at minimums of HTHS 2.6, KV 7.8 and TBN 9.5


Thank you for that. Very useful information.

If I am understanding this right, LL-04 is also subject to the N20 performance, N20 aeration, and N42 valvetronic tests?

Edit: Also, do you know how the LL-01 test stacks up against A40 and MB 229.5?

Last edited by 1JZ_E46; 08/11/16 02:31 PM.

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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4174600 08/11/16 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46

Thank you for that. Very useful information.


No problem.

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
If I am understanding this right, LL-04 is also subject to the N20 performance, N20 aeration, and N42 valvetronic tests?

Yes that is correct.

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Also, do you know how the LL-01 test stacks up against A40 and MB 229.5?


For this I would go to the European spec comparison tool linked to above. I don't happen to have those specs in front of me so I would have to see if I can find them. If I do I will post a synopsis.

Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Solarent] #4174612 08/11/16 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted By: Solarent
As near as I can tell there shouldn't be an issue with M1FS 0W40 meeting LL-01, it has the right base, high enough HTHS and it's not like the registrations fees are too crazy (expensive but not a big deal for someone like Mobil) maybe they let their release lapse and haven't renewed yet?

According to responses from XOM customer service, they claim there was a recent change in LL-01 specification and that's why they no longer meet it. But it's strange that they only dropped the LL-01 approval when they introduced the FS variant.



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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Solarent] #4174614 08/11/16 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Solarent
I don't happen to have those specs in front of me so I would have to see if I can find them. If I do I will post a synopsis.


Great. Thanks again.


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Quattro Pete] #4174623 08/11/16 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Solarent
As near as I can tell there shouldn't be an issue with M1FS 0W40 meeting LL-01, it has the right base, high enough HTHS and it's not like the registrations fees are too crazy (expensive but not a big deal for someone like Mobil) maybe they let their release lapse and haven't renewed yet?

According to responses from XOM customer service, they claim there was a recent change in LL-01 specification and that's why they no longer meet it. But it's strange that they only dropped the LL-01 approval when they introduced the FS variant.



Yes that is weird. I'm pretty confident nothing has changed here except that they made the approval process available online, it is a little more rigorous and requires an audit of the manufacturing facility's quality program and samples to be sent to BMW for testing. Maybe the with the process change, the fee's also changed and Mobil wasn't happy about it? But it's really not that bad - comparable to Dexos1 or other similar OEM registrations - no where near what Cummins charges... maybe they want to push BMW owners to ESP as it has LL-04? Maybe they think that LL-01 is now close to 15 years old and not worth it?

Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Quattro Pete] #4174638 08/11/16 03:33 PM
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deven Offline
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: deven
Just look for A3/B3-B4 spec. Can't get any tougher than this

Yes you certainly can.

OK wrong choice of words. What I meant was that most automobiles don't need anything more than a A3/B4 rated oil


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: deven] #4174685 08/11/16 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: deven
OK wrong choice of words. What I meant was that most automobiles don't need anything more than a A3/B4 rated oil


Agreed, but that's not really what this thread was trying to answer/discuss.


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Solarent] #4174765 08/11/16 06:05 PM
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edyvw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Solarent
As near as I can tell there shouldn't be an issue with M1FS 0W40 meeting LL-01, it has the right base, high enough HTHS and it's not like the registrations fees are too crazy (expensive but not a big deal for someone like Mobil) maybe they let their release lapse and haven't renewed yet?

According to responses from XOM customer service, they claim there was a recent change in LL-01 specification and that's why they no longer meet it. But it's strange that they only dropped the LL-01 approval when they introduced the FS variant.



Yes that is weird. I'm pretty confident nothing has changed here except that they made the approval process available online, it is a little more rigorous and requires an audit of the manufacturing facility's quality program and samples to be sent to BMW for testing. Maybe the with the process change, the fee's also changed and Mobil wasn't happy about it? But it's really not that bad - comparable to Dexos1 or other similar OEM registrations - no where near what Cummins charges... maybe they want to push BMW owners to ESP as it has LL-04? Maybe they think that LL-01 is now close to 15 years old and not worth it?

In my opinion, and I stick to this, M1 with new FS version cannot meet LL-01 currently until they cook something better.
Also, M1 is still keeping VISOM version in EU, biggest market for BMW, and that tells a lot.
Registration fees are not problem, I think problem is much deeper and more complicated.


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4174962 08/12/16 02:42 AM
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Perhaps XOM had an approval under the older protocol which only recently expired and for whatever reason they didn't/couldn't apply for a re-approval.


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Solarent] #4174992 08/12/16 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: Solarent
But it's really not that bad - comparable to Dexos1 or other similar OEM registrations - no where near what Cummins charges... maybe they want to push BMW owners to ESP as it has LL-04? Maybe they think that LL-01 is now close to 15 years old and not worth it?

Imperial Oil just wants BMW people to use Mobil Super 3000 LL-01 in the big drum. wink Or, maybe they're peeved at the BMW/Shell arrangement. I already said months ago what the "FS" stands for.


Plain, simple Garak.

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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Garak] #4175027 08/12/16 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Solarent
But it's really not that bad - comparable to Dexos1 or other similar OEM registrations - no where near what Cummins charges... maybe they want to push BMW owners to ESP as it has LL-04? Maybe they think that LL-01 is now close to 15 years old and not worth it?

Imperial Oil just wants BMW people to use Mobil Super 3000 LL-01 in the big drum. wink Or, maybe they're peeved at the BMW/Shell arrangement. I already said months ago what the "FS" stands for.


crackmeup That is hilarious.

I don't know what they would have to be mad about - it's not like they had the business before that - it was Castrol's. My oil fill cap still says "BMW Recommends Castrol"

Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Solarent] #4175046 08/12/16 07:15 AM
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Don't ruin my hypothesis of what "FS" stands for. wink

Seriously, though, if Mobil Super 3000 in the drums meets LL-01, I can't see Mobil having great difficulty making an oil to meet the spec.


Plain, simple Garak.

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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4175065 08/12/16 07:35 AM
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I think there's only one reason for this - money, as they're probably more profitable losing some customers driving older BMW's and using the newer base oil. Had BMW continued to use it at the dealers and as factory fill, I'm sure it would still meet the spec.

Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Solarent] #4175066 08/12/16 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: Solarent
My oil fill cap still says "BMW Recommends Castrol"

You need to get a replacement cap ASAP!



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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: glxpassat] #4175170 08/12/16 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: glxpassat
I think there's only one reason for this - money, as they're probably more profitable losing some customers driving older BMW's and using the newer base oil. Had BMW continued to use it at the dealers and as factory fill, I'm sure it would still meet the spec.

When did BMW used Mobil1 as their oil?


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Quattro Pete] #4175171 08/12/16 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Solarent
My oil fill cap still says "BMW Recommends Castrol"

You need to get a replacement cap ASAP!





I am not sure whether my engine will perform well since that decision:)


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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: edyvw] #4176932 08/14/16 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: glxpassat
I think there's only one reason for this - money, as they're probably more profitable losing some customers driving older BMW's and using the newer base oil. Had BMW continued to use it at the dealers and as factory fill, I'm sure it would still meet the spec.

When did BMW used Mobil1 as their oil?


Whoops, my bad, I had something else on my mind.

Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: Quattro Pete] #4185853 08/24/16 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Solarent
My oil fill cap still says "BMW Recommends Castrol"

You need to get a replacement cap ASAP!






I've actually been wondering if BMW are planning to update the part number for the oil cap with a version that mentions Pennzoil. I wouldn't put it past them. I once overheard someone arguing with the parts guy at the dealership over the legitimacy of BMW branded oil because the oil cap says Castrol on it.

Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: OldEuroCarLover] #4185906 08/25/16 02:48 AM
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weasley Offline
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Originally Posted By: OldEuroCarLover
I've actually been wondering if BMW are planning to update the part number for the oil cap with a version that mentions Pennzoil.


But BMW don't recommend Pennzoil, or Shell - they recommend BMW oil (which is currently supplied by Shell).
In the past they specifically recommended Castrol oil. Now it seems they would rather push their own brand.


2017 SEAT Leon 1.4 EcoTSI 150 FR Technology DSG
2018 Volvo XC60 D4
2011 KTM 990 SMT
Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4188025 08/27/16 04:34 PM
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zveroboy Offline
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Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
For gas engines, what is the most stringent oil specification nowadays?


Probably MB 229.5/51 ?

MB spec details 2012

ACEA 2012

Enjoy! smile

Last edited by zveroboy; 08/27/16 04:38 PM.

2014 AlfaRomeo Giulietta 1.4 MAir - Selenia Sport Power 5w40
2008 Fiat Panda 1.1 - Lukoil Genesis Premium 5w40
2010 Ford Ka 1.2 - Total Quartz 9000 Energy 5w40
Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: zveroboy] #4191178 08/30/16 09:46 PM
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UncleDave Offline
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Originally Posted By: zveroboy
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
For gas engines, what is the most stringent oil specification nowadays?


Probably MB 229.5/51 ?

MB spec details 2012

ACEA 2012

Enjoy! smile


229.52 - even harder to find. Very hard to find in Cali.

UD


Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: UncleDave] #4191192 08/30/16 10:42 PM
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edyvw Offline
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Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: zveroboy
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
For gas engines, what is the most stringent oil specification nowadays?


Probably MB 229.5/51 ?

MB spec details 2012

ACEA 2012

Enjoy! smile


229.52 - even harder to find. Very hard to find in Cali.

UD

Actually, 229.52 is not at all more stringent then 229.51. 229.52 has to do with fuel economy. Mobil1 0W30 X1 meets this spec and you can get it on Amazon.
It is made for modern diesel engines, but considering SAPS levels I think M1 5W30 ESP is still much better oil.
As for most stringent, apparently updated BMW LL-01 is most stringent.


11' BMW 328i xDrive 6MT (BMW TPT 5W30+OE filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W30+OE filter)
15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: edyvw] #4191218 08/31/16 12:44 AM
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edyvw,

Originally Posted By: edyvw
As for most stringent, apparently updated BMW LL-01 is most stringent.


Do you have some links for the new spec to share with us? It seems like Lubrizol is not updated and does not contain any info about this new spec. I don't see it here http://www.oilspecifications.org/bmw.php either ...

Last edited by volodymyr; 08/31/16 12:56 AM.

2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: edyvw] #4191347 08/31/16 08:00 AM
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UncleDave Offline
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: zveroboy
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
For gas engines, what is the most stringent oil specification nowadays?


Probably MB 229.5/51 ?

MB spec details 2012

ACEA 2012

Enjoy! smile


229.52 - even harder to find. Very hard to find in Cali.

UD

Actually, 229.52 is not at all more stringent then 229.51. 229.52 has to do with fuel economy. Mobil1 0W30 X1 meets this spec and you can get it on Amazon.
It is made for modern diesel engines, but considering SAPS levels I think M1 5W30 ESP is still much better oil.
As for most stringent, apparently updated BMW LL-01 is most stringent.


Pretty sure its more than economy, I've read that there is a different oxidation spec for .52 in several places including here on bitog.

http://www.ingelbeen.be/en/news/p/detail/brand-new-mb-claim-229-52-for-mobil-1-esp-0w-30

Ive been using the 2 oils that I could actually get that meet spec the M1 0w30 ESP, and the MB oil. (off Amazon) and there was a recent thread that posted an MB link with a bunch of choices, but they are still comparatively hard to find.

Most oil companies only have none to 1 product thats 229.52 compliant.

UD

Last edited by UncleDave; 08/31/16 08:00 AM.

Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
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Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: UncleDave] #4191374 08/31/16 08:38 AM
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Quattro Pete Offline
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Originally Posted By: UncleDave
I've read that there is a different oxidation spec for .52

Correct. 229.52 has stricter oxidation requirements...



2002 530i   2015 Q5 3.0T   2018 Charger SRT
Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4191391 08/31/16 08:52 AM
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UncleDave Offline
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It was your original post I gleaned that from QP.

UD


Uncle Dave
Cat 3126/2 MB3500/Titan/RX400H/17 Ridgeline
700HP V10/ 725HP BBC/ Raptor 700/ KFX450/ YZ250/Onan 8K/ Cat3011C
Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4191556 08/31/16 11:48 AM
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edyvw Offline
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Well, I missed that. I still though do not like SAPS number considering diesels are targeted vehicles.


11' BMW 328i xDrive 6MT (BMW TPT 5W30+OE filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W30+OE filter)
15' Toyota Sienna AWD (Mobil1 5W30 EP+OEM filter).
Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4192172 09/01/16 06:14 AM
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slybunda Offline
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ford 913D spec seems tough.


1995 Ford Fiesta 1.6i 16v Si
2000 Toyota Celica 1.8 VVTL-i
2007 Toyota Aygo+ 1.0i
Re: What is the most stringent Euro specification now? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4195789 09/05/16 03:01 PM
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Subscribing to this. Lots of great information being exchanged.

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