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VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils #4171211
08/07/16 03:47 PM
08/07/16 03:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline OP
volodymyr  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
Hello everyone,

I've been recently searching in internet some info on zddp quantities in mid SAPS oils and I found tables of ACEA C3 (mid SAPS) and A3/B4/MB 229.5 (full SAPS) oils on russian forum http://www.oil-club.ru/ (I do understand some basic russian so I was searching in multiple languages).

You do not need to understand the language to find out zddp quantities, simply search for P or Zn on the left and on the top you got an oil number like 1, 2, 3, etc. The oil name is listed on the bottom for each oil number.

Table 1 (5W-30, API SN, ACEA C3, mid SAPS)



Table 2 (5W-30, API SN, ACEA C3, mid SAPS)



Table 3 (5W-40, A3/B4, MB 229.5, full SAPS)



Table 4 (5W-40, A3/B4, MB 229.5, full SAPS)



Table 5 (5W-40, A3/B4, MB 229.5, full SAPS)



I presume we can trust this information because it makes no sense for them to publish some false info on their forum. In some way it is a great collection of VOA info and it is represented in a nice way.

What strikes me is that in fact being a mid SAPS oil does not necessary mean that it is going to have low quantites of ZDDP. As you can see from the "Table 1" the oil #7 Liqui Moly Top Tec 4600 5W-30 has 933 ppm of P and 1034 of Zink and yet a striking sulphated ash of 0.79 %.


2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: volodymyr] #4171551
08/08/16 01:36 AM
08/08/16 01:36 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,224
Europe
SonofJoe Offline
SonofJoe  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,224
Europe
Excellent find! Very, very informative. Shame they didn't include HTHS but I guess you can't have everything...

A couple of points...

US readers, look at the CCS numbers of these oils (it's the 9th number down in the row which starts with 6600). Eyeballing the numbers, most CCS's are in the 5800 to 6200 cP range. These are way higher numbers than what you see in the US because Euro oils don't have to pass the ILSAC fuel economy tests.

Did everyone notice that Euro oils are, with one or two exceptions, almost always uniquely calcium based with virtually no magnesium being used? I laugh when I hear all this dog-rot about low speed knock being caused by calcium and how we need to move to Mg. There not enough magnesium sulphonate in the entire world to allow such a switch!

I thought it interesting that so many of the so-called 'low ash' C3 oil breached the 0.8 max ash limit! I know the test itself is not particularly repeatable but even so, this is pretty poor show because this is what people are paying top dollar for. That all the oils were formulated to push right against the ash limit says to me, the limit is set too low for the basic needs of the engine regardless of the needs of the emissions control system.

Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: volodymyr] #4171812
08/08/16 10:32 AM
08/08/16 10:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,583
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline
1JZ_E46  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,583
Oregon
Awesome find. Thank you for sharing. Looks like the Liqui-Moly I use has the highest viscosity index.. relatively light add-pack though. Next fill will be with PP Euro 5W-40.


2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: EDGE 0W-30
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: volodymyr] #4171818
08/08/16 10:37 AM
08/08/16 10:37 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,603
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,603
Great Lakes
Why no Castrol oils in this line up? I know they tested a bunch of them...


'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
'18 Charger SRT (PUP 0W-40 SRT)
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: SonofJoe] #4171950
08/08/16 02:06 PM
08/08/16 02:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline OP
volodymyr  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
SonofJoe,

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
US readers, look at the CCS numbers of these oils (it's the 9th number down in the row which starts with 6600).


In fact I can translate to English the original doc (most important part of it) if moderator will allow me to edit my first post in this topic. Somehow I cannot edit it anymore.

Last edited by volodymyr; 08/08/16 02:06 PM.

2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4171953
08/08/16 02:11 PM
08/08/16 02:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline OP
volodymyr  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
1JZ_E46,

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Awesome find. Thank you for sharing. Looks like the Liqui-Moly I use has the highest viscosity index.. relatively light add-pack though. Next fill will be with PP Euro 5W-40.


Indeed, Liqui Moly has quite good numbers, especially Top Tec 4600: plenty of zddp, yet low ash numbers. I checked the price of this oil in my country, and it is [censored] expensive (22 USD per liter) even though the border with Germany is quite close smile


2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: Quattro Pete] #4171960
08/08/16 02:17 PM
08/08/16 02:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline OP
volodymyr  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
Quattro Pete,

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Why no Castrol oils in this line up? I know they tested a bunch of them...


IIRC, in Eastern Europe people would prefer full saps Castrol oils, and there is no Castrol with MB 229.5 in 5W-40 viscosity sold in Europe, so it did not fit the table. The purpose of this table was to show oils with similar characteristics, so maybe one day we will see some 0W-40 or 0W-30 MB 229.5 table, I will keep an eye on it smile


2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: volodymyr] #4171987
08/08/16 03:00 PM
08/08/16 03:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,583
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline
1JZ_E46  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,583
Oregon
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
1JZ_E46,

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Awesome find. Thank you for sharing. Looks like the Liqui-Moly I use has the highest viscosity index.. relatively light add-pack though. Next fill will be with PP Euro 5W-40.


Indeed, Liqui Moly has quite good numbers, especially Top Tec 4600: plenty of zddp, yet low ash numbers. I checked the price of this oil in my country, and it is [censored] expensive (22 USD per liter) even though the border with Germany is quite close smile


Crazy! I would have thought you guys could have anything for cheap(er) in the euro-zone with the all might swiss franc. Must high due to some sort of tax/tariff on German imports?


2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: EDGE 0W-30
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4172039
08/08/16 04:39 PM
08/08/16 04:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline OP
volodymyr  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
1JZ_E46,

Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Crazy! I would have thought you guys could have anything for cheap(er) in the euro-zone with the all might swiss franc. Must high due to some sort of tax/tariff on German imports?


Since we are not in the EU, there are some import taxes, but somehow it is only Liqui Moly that gets exceptionally more expensive here. Usual stuff like Castrol, Valvoline or Mobil 1 is priced rather well.

Last edited by volodymyr; 08/08/16 04:39 PM.

2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: volodymyr] #4172404
08/09/16 02:44 AM
08/09/16 02:44 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 794
UK
weasley Offline
weasley  Offline
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 794
UK
Originally Posted By: volodymyr
...and there is no Castrol with MB 229.5 in 5W-40 viscosity sold in Europe...


Not in your part of Europe, perhaps...
Castrol EDGE 5W-40 A3/B4 whistle


2017 SEAT Leon 1.4 EcoTSI 150 FR Technology DSG
2018 Volvo XC60 D4
2011 KTM 990 SMT
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: weasley] #4172838
08/09/16 01:04 PM
08/09/16 01:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline OP
volodymyr  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
weasley,

Originally Posted By: weasley
Not in your part of Europe, perhaps...Castrol EDGE 5W-40 A3/B4whistle


Thanks for the link. Very nice find actually, I did once search in Austria, Germany, France, Italy for MB 229.5 Edge in 5W-30 or 5W-40 and I could not find it. I wonder why Castrol sells this oil in Spain, but not across the whole EU.


2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: volodymyr] #4173518
08/10/16 11:14 AM
08/10/16 11:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline OP
volodymyr  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
Table 6 (5W-30, VW 504/507, mid SAPS)



Pay attention to an oil #6 Mobil 1 ESP FORMULA 5W-30 which has really big amount of zinc 922 ppm and 874 pp of phosphorus. These quantities are more than I can see with some full SAPS oils.


2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: volodymyr] #4173521
08/10/16 11:19 AM
08/10/16 11:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline OP
volodymyr  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
Table 7 (0W-20, API SN ILSAC GF-5)


Last edited by volodymyr; 08/10/16 11:31 AM.

2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: volodymyr] #4173532
08/10/16 11:32 AM
08/10/16 11:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline OP
volodymyr  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
Table 8 (0W-20, API SN ILSAC GF-5)



2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
Re: VOA tables for mid & full SAPS european oils [Re: volodymyr] #4173533
08/10/16 11:32 AM
08/10/16 11:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
volodymyr Offline OP
volodymyr  Offline OP
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 444
Switzerland
Table 9 (0W-30, API SN ILSAC GF-5)



2001 Honda CBR 600 F4i, Castrol Power 1 Racing 4T 10W40 (SM,MA2)
2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, Shell Helix Ultra 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)
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