Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
He had a chip on his shoulder though
yes, but that was obvious and you could distill that out.
He had a chip on his shoulder though
yes, but that was obvious and you could distill that out.
How Realistic Is This Theory?
- Thread starter Red91
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I would agree sticking with one oil would be a good idea assuming it's a formulation that is known to be exceptionally good at minimizing start-up/warm-up wear. But blindly using just one oil brand may not have any benefit if you've hitched your wagon to a sub par performer.
That said, most OTC oils have very similar DI packages with ZDDP being the principle AW agent.
At the end of the day, the single biggest factor affecting start-up wear for one's daily driver is how the vehicle is operated. Simply making sure you bring the oil up to temperature every time you start the engine will aid in making sure you have a tribofilm on ferrous wear surfaces the next time the vehicle is started. Also running the lightest grade specified will minimize the amount of time an engine will operate outside of hydrodynamic lubrication.
That said, most OTC oils have very similar DI packages with ZDDP being the principle AW agent.
At the end of the day, the single biggest factor affecting start-up wear for one's daily driver is how the vehicle is operated. Simply making sure you bring the oil up to temperature every time you start the engine will aid in making sure you have a tribofilm on ferrous wear surfaces the next time the vehicle is started. Also running the lightest grade specified will minimize the amount of time an engine will operate outside of hydrodynamic lubrication.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Joe90_Guy used to formulate oils, and his views correlate with pitzel
Originally Posted By: Joe90_Guy
If you ask me what three things to look out for in buying a GDI engine oil, I would say Noack, Noack & Noack. You want it to always be as l.....................................
To me, the focus on Calcium/SAPS is somewhat misplaced. If you look at murder victims, they are often covered in blood. We all know that blood should be on the inside, not the .........................................
PS - Forget TEOST. It's won prestigious awards for being The Most Stupidest Lubricant Test Ever Developed. Just remember, no-one was ever stuck on the side of the road because their TEOST broke down...
I miss his input. Did he get banned?
Graphic post and example used to express point of view.
Joe90_Guy no longer lists as a member.
Search function shows last post 23 April 2016.
Joe90_Guy used to formulate oils, and his views correlate with pitzel
Originally Posted By: Joe90_Guy
If you ask me what three things to look out for in buying a GDI engine oil, I would say Noack, Noack & Noack. You want it to always be as l.....................................
To me, the focus on Calcium/SAPS is somewhat misplaced. If you look at murder victims, they are often covered in blood. We all know that blood should be on the inside, not the .........................................
PS - Forget TEOST. It's won prestigious awards for being The Most Stupidest Lubricant Test Ever Developed. Just remember, no-one was ever stuck on the side of the road because their TEOST broke down...
I miss his input. Did he get banned?
Graphic post and example used to express point of view.
Joe90_Guy no longer lists as a member.
Search function shows last post 23 April 2016.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
At the end of the day, the single biggest factor affecting start-up wear for one's daily driver is how the vehicle is operated. Simply making sure you bring the oil up to temperature every time you start the engine will aid in making sure you have a tribofilm on ferrous wear surfaces the next time the vehicle is started.
Agree wholeheartedly...the tribofilm lasts for tens of hours...but I'm confident that my wife's half mile commute isn't doing it any favours.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Also running the lightest grade specified will minimize the amount of time an engine will operate outside of hydrodynamic lubrication.
Only at the extreme ends of pumpability, when the oil can't flow to the pickup.
At above freezing temperatures, 0W, 5W, 10W, and even SAE 30 aren't going to have a problem doing that...and in that circumstance a 0W20 doesn't offer anything either (in fact less viscous shear will increase the warm up time to some degree).
At the end of the day, the single biggest factor affecting start-up wear for one's daily driver is how the vehicle is operated. Simply making sure you bring the oil up to temperature every time you start the engine will aid in making sure you have a tribofilm on ferrous wear surfaces the next time the vehicle is started.
Agree wholeheartedly...the tribofilm lasts for tens of hours...but I'm confident that my wife's half mile commute isn't doing it any favours.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Also running the lightest grade specified will minimize the amount of time an engine will operate outside of hydrodynamic lubrication.
Only at the extreme ends of pumpability, when the oil can't flow to the pickup.
At above freezing temperatures, 0W, 5W, 10W, and even SAE 30 aren't going to have a problem doing that...and in that circumstance a 0W20 doesn't offer anything either (in fact less viscous shear will increase the warm up time to some degree).
Would chemical engine flush products strip the AW layer?
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
He had a chip on his shoulder though
yes, but that was obvious and you could distill that out.
Agreed.
I also didn't think his chip was very big though, and it was a pretty good chip.
I reckon if one were looking for someone with a chip, he would've been the one that ought to get the call.
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
He had a chip on his shoulder though
yes, but that was obvious and you could distill that out.
Agreed.
I also didn't think his chip was very big though, and it was a pretty good chip.
I reckon if one were looking for someone with a chip, he would've been the one that ought to get the call.
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
At the end of the day, the single biggest factor affecting start-up wear for one's daily driver is how the vehicle is operated. Simply making sure you bring the oil up to temperature every time you start the engine will aid in making sure you have a tribofilm on ferrous wear surfaces the next time the vehicle is started.
Agree wholeheartedly...the tribofilm lasts for tens of hours...but I'm confident that my wife's half mile commute isn't doing it any favours.
+1
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Also running the lightest grade specified will minimize the amount of time an engine will operate outside of hydrodynamic lubrication.
Only at the extreme ends of pumpability, when the oil can't flow to the pickup.
At above freezing temperatures, 0W, 5W, 10W, and even SAE 30 aren't going to have a problem doing that...and in that circumstance a 0W20 doesn't offer anything either (in fact less viscous shear will increase the warm up time to some degree).
At operating temperatures, the reverse would be true, I suppose.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
At the end of the day, the single biggest factor affecting start-up wear for one's daily driver is how the vehicle is operated. Simply making sure you bring the oil up to temperature every time you start the engine will aid in making sure you have a tribofilm on ferrous wear surfaces the next time the vehicle is started.
Agree wholeheartedly...the tribofilm lasts for tens of hours...but I'm confident that my wife's half mile commute isn't doing it any favours.
+1
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Also running the lightest grade specified will minimize the amount of time an engine will operate outside of hydrodynamic lubrication.
Only at the extreme ends of pumpability, when the oil can't flow to the pickup.
At above freezing temperatures, 0W, 5W, 10W, and even SAE 30 aren't going to have a problem doing that...and in that circumstance a 0W20 doesn't offer anything either (in fact less viscous shear will increase the warm up time to some degree).
At operating temperatures, the reverse would be true, I suppose.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Also running the lightest grade specified will minimize the amount of time an engine will operate outside of hydrodynamic lubrication.
Only at the extreme ends of pumpability, when the oil can't flow to the pickup.
At above freezing temperatures, 0W, 5W, 10W, and even SAE 30 aren't going to have a problem doing that...and in that circumstance a 0W20 doesn't offer anything either (in fact less viscous shear will increase the warm up time to some degree).
That's your opinion. Myself and others including some auto manufacturers and oil formulators disagree.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Also running the lightest grade specified will minimize the amount of time an engine will operate outside of hydrodynamic lubrication.
Only at the extreme ends of pumpability, when the oil can't flow to the pickup.
At above freezing temperatures, 0W, 5W, 10W, and even SAE 30 aren't going to have a problem doing that...and in that circumstance a 0W20 doesn't offer anything either (in fact less viscous shear will increase the warm up time to some degree).
That's your opinion. Myself and others including some auto manufacturers and oil formulators disagree.
Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Shannow
CATERHAM said:
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Also running the lightest grade specified will minimize the amount of time an engine will operate outside of hydrodynamic lubrication.
Only at the extreme ends of pumpability, when the oil can't flow to the pickup.
At above freezing temperatures, 0W, 5W, 10W, and even SAE 30 aren't going to have a problem doing that...and in that circumstance a 0W20 doesn't offer anything either (in fact less viscous shear will increase the warm up time to some degree).
That's your opinion. Myself and others including some auto manufacturers and oil formulators disagree.
Again CATERHAM, please pull out some papers or the like that reinforce your opinion.
And again, CATERHAM, not advertisements and puff pieces which are your normal fare, but actual peer reviewed papers...papers that have been submitted places.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Also running the lightest grade specified will minimize the amount of time an engine will operate outside of hydrodynamic lubrication.
Only at the extreme ends of pumpability, when the oil can't flow to the pickup.
At above freezing temperatures, 0W, 5W, 10W, and even SAE 30 aren't going to have a problem doing that...and in that circumstance a 0W20 doesn't offer anything either (in fact less viscous shear will increase the warm up time to some degree).
That's your opinion. Myself and others including some auto manufacturers and oil formulators disagree.
Again CATERHAM, please pull out some papers or the like that reinforce your opinion.
And again, CATERHAM, not advertisements and puff pieces which are your normal fare, but actual peer reviewed papers...papers that have been submitted places.
Quote:
ASTM has introduced two tests that measure the low temperature performance ofan oil. The test that simulates cold cranking of an engine is the cold cranking simulator(CCS), and the test for measuring low temperature pumping is the mini rotary viscosimeter(MRV). Both the CCS and MRV show good correlation to low temperature performance.The maximum values for these tests are listed for the ‘‘W’’ grades in the SAE engine oilviscosity classification. The CCS is designed to reproduce the elements of viscous dragthat effects cranking speed. The MRV is designed to predict the low temperature pumpabil-ity and therefore the ability of the oil to reach critical components under low temperature starting conditions.
Quote:
The viscosities usually recommended by the automotive manufacturers for passengercar engines are SAE 10W-30 or 5W-30 for year-round service. The main reasons forchoosing these lower viscosity products is to help achieve CAFE requirements and to help assure quick oil supply to critical areas such as rocker arms at cold starts. For extreme low temperature operation, SAE OW-XX oils are available.
Quote:
In past years, the viscosity index of an oil was of limited importance for an oil thatwas used for engines not subject to frequent cold starts. This remains partially true todayexcept that engine manufacturers are recommending the high VI oils for year-round ser-vice, primarily because the viscous drag of an oil is proportional to its viscosity, andhigher viscosities at start-up or during operation will reduce efficiency (fuel economy).
Lubrication Fundamentals Second Edition
revised and Expanded
(Exxon Mobil)
ASTM has introduced two tests that measure the low temperature performance ofan oil. The test that simulates cold cranking of an engine is the cold cranking simulator(CCS), and the test for measuring low temperature pumping is the mini rotary viscosimeter(MRV). Both the CCS and MRV show good correlation to low temperature performance.The maximum values for these tests are listed for the ‘‘W’’ grades in the SAE engine oilviscosity classification. The CCS is designed to reproduce the elements of viscous dragthat effects cranking speed. The MRV is designed to predict the low temperature pumpabil-ity and therefore the ability of the oil to reach critical components under low temperature starting conditions.
Quote:
The viscosities usually recommended by the automotive manufacturers for passengercar engines are SAE 10W-30 or 5W-30 for year-round service. The main reasons forchoosing these lower viscosity products is to help achieve CAFE requirements and to help assure quick oil supply to critical areas such as rocker arms at cold starts. For extreme low temperature operation, SAE OW-XX oils are available.
Quote:
In past years, the viscosity index of an oil was of limited importance for an oil thatwas used for engines not subject to frequent cold starts. This remains partially true todayexcept that engine manufacturers are recommending the high VI oils for year-round ser-vice, primarily because the viscous drag of an oil is proportional to its viscosity, andhigher viscosities at start-up or during operation will reduce efficiency (fuel economy).
Lubrication Fundamentals Second Edition
revised and Expanded
(Exxon Mobil)
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Also running the lightest grade specified will minimize the amount of time an engine will operate outside of hydrodynamic lubrication.
Only at the extreme ends of pumpability, when the oil can't flow to the pickup.
At above freezing temperatures, 0W, 5W, 10W, and even SAE 30 aren't going to have a problem doing that...and in that circumstance a 0W20 doesn't offer anything either (in fact less viscous shear will increase the warm up time to some degree).
That's your opinion. Myself and others including some auto manufacturers and oil formulators disagree.
Well I agree with Shannow, when AW isn't up to temperature you want a thick oil film. The issue with thick oil is that it takes a while to get where it is needed.
So do you have a thick, slow cold flowing oil or a thin, fast cold flowing oil. This is where base stock quality helps minimise things, with the right basestock and PPD you can get a nice high BOV oil with good cold start flow.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Also running the lightest grade specified will minimize the amount of time an engine will operate outside of hydrodynamic lubrication.
Only at the extreme ends of pumpability, when the oil can't flow to the pickup.
At above freezing temperatures, 0W, 5W, 10W, and even SAE 30 aren't going to have a problem doing that...and in that circumstance a 0W20 doesn't offer anything either (in fact less viscous shear will increase the warm up time to some degree).
That's your opinion. Myself and others including some auto manufacturers and oil formulators disagree.
Well I agree with Shannow, when AW isn't up to temperature you want a thick oil film. The issue with thick oil is that it takes a while to get where it is needed.
So do you have a thick, slow cold flowing oil or a thin, fast cold flowing oil. This is where base stock quality helps minimise things, with the right basestock and PPD you can get a nice high BOV oil with good cold start flow.
Gonna have to have a tough time selling that on folks that ran straight 30w oils in their cars, year round in Iowa, when I was a kid. After I even went off to play Army with Uncle Sam, my dad bought a new 1974 Pontiac Catalina with a 400 and he ran straight 30w in it. That car went to 250,000 miles before it succumbed to body cancer. Engine seemed fine. All he ran in it was a conventional Archer brand 30w oil. It was garaged when not in use, but the garage was not heated though it was attached to the house. Not saying it is the right thing to do, and Dad seemed to have a phobia about the multi vis oils on the market and would only use a 30w, but he had several vehicles over the years that he drove a long ways on straight weight oils. Even the '66 Chevy pickup with a 283 in it I drove to High School, it only got a 30w oil. I took it over when Dad bought a '70 Chevy pickup to replace it. After I went in the Army, my Uncle took it off Dad's hands and drove it for several years before rebuilding the engine. Can't recall exact mileage, but it was over 200,000. All of this in Iowa year round.
Not saying I condone or do such things today, just saying that sometimes we might get over technical about stuff to the point where we are straining at gnats over things more than we need to. Most folks don't even keep their vehicles to 200,000 miles, and the main reason they have engine problems is due to abusing them and poor maintenance practices, not necessarily the oil.
Maybe some of it carried over to me. All I use is a 10w30 syntethic in everything. My 2006 Caddy 3.6L and my 2015 2500HD 6.0L (and the '98 2500 454 it replaced) and everything else with gas or diesel. Nary a problem.
Not saying I condone or do such things today, just saying that sometimes we might get over technical about stuff to the point where we are straining at gnats over things more than we need to. Most folks don't even keep their vehicles to 200,000 miles, and the main reason they have engine problems is due to abusing them and poor maintenance practices, not necessarily the oil.
Maybe some of it carried over to me. All I use is a 10w30 syntethic in everything. My 2006 Caddy 3.6L and my 2015 2500HD 6.0L (and the '98 2500 454 it replaced) and everything else with gas or diesel. Nary a problem.
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Gonna have to have a tough time selling that........ just saying that sometimes we might get over technical about stuff to the point where we are straining at gnats over things more than we need to..
I'm sure that is correct. Even though there may be some merit to the idea that changing oil to frequently may cause a slight theoretical increase in wear, I challenge anyone to wear out their vehicle excessively early by changing their oil way too often. I feel it will be an up hill battle, with the sump plug as the only real casualty.
Still this is the place to argue such things, as my wife isn't very interested in discussing optimum oil change intervals with me.
Gonna have to have a tough time selling that........ just saying that sometimes we might get over technical about stuff to the point where we are straining at gnats over things more than we need to..
I'm sure that is correct. Even though there may be some merit to the idea that changing oil to frequently may cause a slight theoretical increase in wear, I challenge anyone to wear out their vehicle excessively early by changing their oil way too often. I feel it will be an up hill battle, with the sump plug as the only real casualty.
Still this is the place to argue such things, as my wife isn't very interested in discussing optimum oil change intervals with me.
Neither is mine... Straight 30 served this country well for let's see - about 80 years until they got fancy and started selling multi's. They're still selling them and still charging a premium for them today.
If it'll pump, it'll get there
The film always has to do the job even after the oil circulates. And in some locations, pumps don't do anything anyway (piston skirts, wrist pins, timing chains, etc.).
If it'll pump, it'll get there
The film always has to do the job even after the oil circulates. And in some locations, pumps don't do anything anyway (piston skirts, wrist pins, timing chains, etc.).
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Neither is mine... Straight 30 served this country well for let's see - about 80 years until they got fancy and started selling multi's. They're still selling them and still charging a premium for them today.
If it'll pump, it'll get there
The film always has to do the job even after the oil circulates. And in some locations, pumps don't do anything anyway (piston skirts, wrist pins, timing chains, etc.).
This is absolutely right.
I will add that I have never ever pulled an engine down and found it to be dry where there's supposed to be oil.
And waiting for oil work it's way up to the top end through a pushrod when cold, I have never seen an engine part run dry at idle until there's oil flowing over everything.
Going off topic a little here.
Neither is mine... Straight 30 served this country well for let's see - about 80 years until they got fancy and started selling multi's. They're still selling them and still charging a premium for them today.
If it'll pump, it'll get there
The film always has to do the job even after the oil circulates. And in some locations, pumps don't do anything anyway (piston skirts, wrist pins, timing chains, etc.).
This is absolutely right.
I will add that I have never ever pulled an engine down and found it to be dry where there's supposed to be oil.
And waiting for oil work it's way up to the top end through a pushrod when cold, I have never seen an engine part run dry at idle until there's oil flowing over everything.
Going off topic a little here.
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Thebimmerfan
Regarding truck engines - have you ever driven a truck? They use to run mostly long highway trips, sometimes between countries and continents. A truck can make 10 000kms in one week, noone would change the oil weekly, because no neeed for it, oil just won't be stressed enough. For a truck 1500rpm is the upper zone or revolutions, they use to run at about 500rpm, no spirited driving there, no stop and go city driving, oil in this case doesn't see much punishment. No comparison possible between the oil in a sporty driven, dailydriver often revved up to 7000rpm and more and the one in a truck used mostly for long trips in ridiculously low rpm range.
Yes, we own three of them:
1. Has a Cummins ISB 6.7L engine
2. Has a Mercedes, not sure of the specs off the top of my head
3. Has a CAT C7 7.2L engine
All are around 250HP, they are straight-frames with 35,000lb GWVR's. They are backed with Eaton 6spd manuals. Cruise speed is around 2,200RPM IIRC, which puts them at the speed limiter (105KM/h). The RPM limit for the CAT is 2,500RPM, and will see it regularly.
OCI is 25,000Km on conventional 15w-40.
Because they are only 250HP, they are often loaded to max weight and subsequently under very high load. Use in stop-and-go in Toronto is brutal, and they can be stuck in traffic on the DVP or 401 for hours at a time in bumper-to-bumper.
As Shannow has pointed out, bearing size is much, MUCH larger, so speed is higher.
For the CAT, bore diameter is 4.25", stroke is 5". So swept area per revolution is significantly higher than your typical gasser, and these are relatively small, lighter duty diesels. Larger, OTR engines like the C13, these dimensions are even larger. The C13 has 5.12" bores and a stroke of 6.18", peak power is achieved at 2,100RPM.
The primary driver for the allowable OCI's on these engines is sump size; the volume of oil is massively higher than your typical gasser, which allows for extended drain intervals via tolerance for a higher volume of contaminants to be diluted, and this is often coupled with advanced filtration not found in the passenger car realm as well.
The C7 holds 18 litres of oil, the ISB 15L. The C13 holds 30L. This is the reason they are able to run extended OCI's.
Regarding truck engines - have you ever driven a truck? They use to run mostly long highway trips, sometimes between countries and continents. A truck can make 10 000kms in one week, noone would change the oil weekly, because no neeed for it, oil just won't be stressed enough. For a truck 1500rpm is the upper zone or revolutions, they use to run at about 500rpm, no spirited driving there, no stop and go city driving, oil in this case doesn't see much punishment. No comparison possible between the oil in a sporty driven, dailydriver often revved up to 7000rpm and more and the one in a truck used mostly for long trips in ridiculously low rpm range.
Yes, we own three of them:
1. Has a Cummins ISB 6.7L engine
2. Has a Mercedes, not sure of the specs off the top of my head
3. Has a CAT C7 7.2L engine
All are around 250HP, they are straight-frames with 35,000lb GWVR's. They are backed with Eaton 6spd manuals. Cruise speed is around 2,200RPM IIRC, which puts them at the speed limiter (105KM/h). The RPM limit for the CAT is 2,500RPM, and will see it regularly.
OCI is 25,000Km on conventional 15w-40.
Because they are only 250HP, they are often loaded to max weight and subsequently under very high load. Use in stop-and-go in Toronto is brutal, and they can be stuck in traffic on the DVP or 401 for hours at a time in bumper-to-bumper.
As Shannow has pointed out, bearing size is much, MUCH larger, so speed is higher.
For the CAT, bore diameter is 4.25", stroke is 5". So swept area per revolution is significantly higher than your typical gasser, and these are relatively small, lighter duty diesels. Larger, OTR engines like the C13, these dimensions are even larger. The C13 has 5.12" bores and a stroke of 6.18", peak power is achieved at 2,100RPM.
The primary driver for the allowable OCI's on these engines is sump size; the volume of oil is massively higher than your typical gasser, which allows for extended drain intervals via tolerance for a higher volume of contaminants to be diluted, and this is often coupled with advanced filtration not found in the passenger car realm as well.
The C7 holds 18 litres of oil, the ISB 15L. The C13 holds 30L. This is the reason they are able to run extended OCI's.
Gentlemen,
For all those people who wondered whatever happened to Joe90_guy, he is fine but is still hiding in our attic after being chased all across the UK by a load of angry Americans wielding pitchforks. Most of the time he is lucid and rational but if someone accidentally says the words '3k oil drain' he starts to shake uncontrollably, foams at the mouth and rants about bring 'misunderstood'. In this event we find that feeding him lots of Valium and putting him in the straight-jacket brings him back to a calm state.
He is pleased that some of you have missed his posts and opinions. While he sadly won't ever be well enough to rejoin BITOG, he did suggest I occasionally speak on his behalf. I look forward to interacting with you all in the future.
SoJ
For all those people who wondered whatever happened to Joe90_guy, he is fine but is still hiding in our attic after being chased all across the UK by a load of angry Americans wielding pitchforks. Most of the time he is lucid and rational but if someone accidentally says the words '3k oil drain' he starts to shake uncontrollably, foams at the mouth and rants about bring 'misunderstood'. In this event we find that feeding him lots of Valium and putting him in the straight-jacket brings him back to a calm state.
He is pleased that some of you have missed his posts and opinions. While he sadly won't ever be well enough to rejoin BITOG, he did suggest I occasionally speak on his behalf. I look forward to interacting with you all in the future.
SoJ
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