R-12 A/C
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Caprice is still an R12 system, converted to ES12 propane based refrigerant. Works better than any R134 converted system I have ever come across.
Kestas
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My 71 Cutlass still has a working a/c with r12.
Otherwise, I'm a big proponent of using propane/butane as a replacement refrigerant.
Otherwise, I'm a big proponent of using propane/butane as a replacement refrigerant.
I use envirosafe (propane butane mix with added dye and pine scent) in my 68' Electra. I am probably going to vent it and use the "industrial" version of envirosafe instead because I am not getting vent temps at idle I want. Its supposedly around 5* colder than the standard stuff.
Above idle speed (550-600 rpm) its 47* but at idle it hovers around 60*. R12 was 33* at speed and around 45* at idle. I have read that POA type systems do not work as well with HC refrigerants.
In my 95' Pathfinder envirosafe works significantly better than r134. Temps in the high 30s at speed and around 45 at idle.
Above idle speed (550-600 rpm) its 47* but at idle it hovers around 60*. R12 was 33* at speed and around 45* at idle. I have read that POA type systems do not work as well with HC refrigerants.
In my 95' Pathfinder envirosafe works significantly better than r134. Temps in the high 30s at speed and around 45 at idle.
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Your best off using an R12 alternative instead of shortening the compressor life converting to R134A.
I'd use this if I had an old R12 Vehicle: https://www.amazon.com/Cans-RED-Refriger...mp;keywords=r12
Note that after installing that witches' brew, NOBODY will touch the system. If you don't tell the shop and contaminate their A/C machine, you are going to be writing a REALLY big check!
Your best off using an R12 alternative instead of shortening the compressor life converting to R134A.
I'd use this if I had an old R12 Vehicle: https://www.amazon.com/Cans-RED-Refriger...mp;keywords=r12
Note that after installing that witches' brew, NOBODY will touch the system. If you don't tell the shop and contaminate their A/C machine, you are going to be writing a REALLY big check!
There is NO way I would use a propane or any other flammable based 'brew' as a replacement for R12 or any Freon. It is not safe in an accident and surely not what the manufactured spec'd for use. The point made above about contaminating a shops equipment is very true as well.
Using HC based refrigerant, I was in an accident with a drunk driver that resulted in the loss of the entire front end of my car beyond the windshield washer nozzles, and my transmission erupted out of the floor and ended up in the back seat. Know what? No fire.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Your best off using an R12 alternative instead of shortening the compressor life converting to R134A.
I'd use this if I had an old R12 Vehicle: https://www.amazon.com/Cans-RED-Refriger...mp;keywords=r12
Note that after installing that witches' brew, NOBODY will touch the system.
Didn't you once state that you wanted people killed (I think that it was shot actually) for installing HC ?
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
There is NO way I would use a propane or any other flammable based 'brew' as a replacement for R12 or any Freon. It is not safe in an accident and surely not what the manufactured spec'd for use. The point made above about contaminating a shops equipment is very true as well.
LOL, half a pound of HC versus...what exactly was in your fuel tank again WRT safety ?
http://www.climatecontrolnews.com.au/news/time-has-come-to-debunk-the-myths
Hope you have a roofrack to carry your wife's hair spray home safely outside the vehicle.
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Your best off using an R12 alternative instead of shortening the compressor life converting to R134A.
I'd use this if I had an old R12 Vehicle: https://www.amazon.com/Cans-RED-Refriger...mp;keywords=r12
Note that after installing that witches' brew, NOBODY will touch the system.
Didn't you once state that you wanted people killed (I think that it was shot actually) for installing HC ?
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
There is NO way I would use a propane or any other flammable based 'brew' as a replacement for R12 or any Freon. It is not safe in an accident and surely not what the manufactured spec'd for use. The point made above about contaminating a shops equipment is very true as well.
LOL, half a pound of HC versus...what exactly was in your fuel tank again WRT safety ?
http://www.climatecontrolnews.com.au/news/time-has-come-to-debunk-the-myths
Hope you have a roofrack to carry your wife's hair spray home safely outside the vehicle.
Didn't Europe mandate the newest refrigerant from DuPont that Mercedes tested and it was found not only flammable, but also releasing toxic to humans fumes? I little bit of propane is not a big thing in the AC system.
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Caprice is still an R12 system, converted to ES12 propane based refrigerant. Works better than any R134 converted system I have ever come across.
Not only is this great stuff but it has natural lubricity that allegedly helps the compressor last even longer.
Caprice is still an R12 system, converted to ES12 propane based refrigerant. Works better than any R134 converted system I have ever come across.
Not only is this great stuff but it has natural lubricity that allegedly helps the compressor last even longer.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
There is NO way I would use a propane or any other flammable based 'brew' as a replacement for R12 or any Freon. It is not safe in an accident and surely not what the manufactured spec'd for use. The point made above about contaminating a shops equipment is very true as well.
So... You'll know that the flash point of propane/isobutane is actually higher than R-134a.
It's not a bottle of propane under the hood, buddy. You're actually supposed to use less propane/isobutane than R-12 in the system.
Sheesh.
There is NO way I would use a propane or any other flammable based 'brew' as a replacement for R12 or any Freon. It is not safe in an accident and surely not what the manufactured spec'd for use. The point made above about contaminating a shops equipment is very true as well.
So... You'll know that the flash point of propane/isobutane is actually higher than R-134a.
It's not a bottle of propane under the hood, buddy. You're actually supposed to use less propane/isobutane than R-12 in the system.
Sheesh.
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
It's not a bottle of propane under the hood, buddy. You're actually supposed to use less propane/isobutane than R-12 in the system.
A common misconception. Less weight, but same volume. None the less, I like HC but you'll never convince the hysterical hand wavers, so it's not an argument worth getting into. Let them keep their over priced, inferior performing HFC refrigerants while the rest of us quietly get on with it.
It's not a bottle of propane under the hood, buddy. You're actually supposed to use less propane/isobutane than R-12 in the system.
A common misconception. Less weight, but same volume. None the less, I like HC but you'll never convince the hysterical hand wavers, so it's not an argument worth getting into. Let them keep their over priced, inferior performing HFC refrigerants while the rest of us quietly get on with it.
Originally Posted By: Brad_C
A common misconception. Less weight, but same volume. None the less, I like HC but you'll never convince the hysterical hand wavers, so it's not an argument worth getting into. Let them keep their over priced, inferior performing HFC refrigerants while the rest of us quietly get on with it.
Not a misconception. Less weight = less mass = less refrigerant. Lower head pressures too.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Anyone charging an air conditioner with propane should be arrested.
Why's that? Because you have no basic understanding of using propane/isobutane as a refrigerant, and the rest of us should be punished for that?
What about using propane as a power adder in a diesel? Or running a vehicle on natural gas? Surely these offenses are more egregious in your eyes?
A common misconception. Less weight, but same volume. None the less, I like HC but you'll never convince the hysterical hand wavers, so it's not an argument worth getting into. Let them keep their over priced, inferior performing HFC refrigerants while the rest of us quietly get on with it.
Not a misconception. Less weight = less mass = less refrigerant. Lower head pressures too.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Anyone charging an air conditioner with propane should be arrested.
Why's that? Because you have no basic understanding of using propane/isobutane as a refrigerant, and the rest of us should be punished for that?
What about using propane as a power adder in a diesel? Or running a vehicle on natural gas? Surely these offenses are more egregious in your eyes?
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Anyone charging an air conditioner with propane should be arrested.
How about using propane for BBQ? Are you or millions of other people certified for handling pressurized containers that have a flammable gas inside?
Anyone charging an air conditioner with propane should be arrested.
How about using propane for BBQ? Are you or millions of other people certified for handling pressurized containers that have a flammable gas inside?
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Anyone charging an air conditioner with propane should be arrested.
How about using propane for BBQ? Are you or millions of other people certified for handling pressurized containers that have a flammable gas inside?
I am, actually.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Anyone charging an air conditioner with propane should be arrested.
How about using propane for BBQ? Are you or millions of other people certified for handling pressurized containers that have a flammable gas inside?
I am, actually.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Anyone charging an air conditioner with propane should be arrested.
How about using propane for BBQ? Are you or millions of other people certified for handling pressurized containers that have a flammable gas inside?
I am, actually.
Sweet, have you started reporting all the barbequing people yet?
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Anyone charging an air conditioner with propane should be arrested.
How about using propane for BBQ? Are you or millions of other people certified for handling pressurized containers that have a flammable gas inside?
I am, actually.
Sweet, have you started reporting all the barbequing people yet?
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Not a misconception. Less weight = less mass = less refrigerant. Lower head pressures too.
Less weight = Less mass = less refrigerant". Given the molecular mass of HC is about 36% of R12, and you charge about 36% of the R12 weight when you gas up an old system (some say 30% but that can cause oil starvation in TXV systems), then for the equivalent charge you have pretty much the same number of molecules. Liquid volume is the same (which is what you are actually aiming for when you charge). So if by "less mass" you mean exactly the same liquid volume *and* the same number of molecules (which expands to the same volume of gas at STP) then yes there is less refrigerant.
While I'm here. Head pressure is lower for 2 reasons.
A) Because HC is more efficient at transferring heat it effectively makes the condenser more efficient. More heat rejected from the refrigerant results in a lower head pressure.
B) HC does not accurately match the R12 PT curve. As the temperature increases the R12 curve increases further than the HC curve, so HC's generally have a lower pressure at a given high temperature point.
Head pressure is not lower because you "use less refrigerant".
Not a misconception. Less weight = less mass = less refrigerant. Lower head pressures too.
Less weight = Less mass = less refrigerant". Given the molecular mass of HC is about 36% of R12, and you charge about 36% of the R12 weight when you gas up an old system (some say 30% but that can cause oil starvation in TXV systems), then for the equivalent charge you have pretty much the same number of molecules. Liquid volume is the same (which is what you are actually aiming for when you charge). So if by "less mass" you mean exactly the same liquid volume *and* the same number of molecules (which expands to the same volume of gas at STP) then yes there is less refrigerant.
While I'm here. Head pressure is lower for 2 reasons.
A) Because HC is more efficient at transferring heat it effectively makes the condenser more efficient. More heat rejected from the refrigerant results in a lower head pressure.
B) HC does not accurately match the R12 PT curve. As the temperature increases the R12 curve increases further than the HC curve, so HC's generally have a lower pressure at a given high temperature point.
Head pressure is not lower because you "use less refrigerant".
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