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Horsepower VS Oil Change Interval (OCI) #4117408 06/07/16 02:28 AM
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jon_a_127 Offline OP
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We come to this forum because we care about extending the life of engines and transmissions, and at the same time trying to save the earth (and money) by not throwing away good engine oil which can continue to be in service.

With that out of the way, If a used oil of 3000 miles has similar wear metals, similar viscosity to the same 5000 miles oil, which I see it in a lot of UOAs, does it mean the same engine should output the same maximum power on both mileages?

UOAs here showing people running their oil for more than 5000 miles. Although a lot of you have good results with it, does anyone here also did a dyno run, quarter mile run, in gear acceleration time... of different mileage on the same oil along with a UOA report?

I’m trying to see if there’s any relationship between Engine Power vs Mileage/Time on the oil.
So maybe we can all decide to change our oil based on quarter mile time, 0-60 time, in gear acceleration times, dyno run… without spending money to buy the kit from the oil analysis lab.

But I believe new oil got to be more horsepower than 5000 mile oil, right?


08 PGO GMAX 200
14 ZX-6R 636
13 BMW 118i 1.6L DI 170hp 184lb-ft
93 Mitsubishi Expo scrapped (radiator hose broke, HG blown)
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Re: Horsepower VS Oil Change Interval (OCI) [Re: jon_a_127] #4117411 06/07/16 02:55 AM
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Not trying to be a smart-aleck, but I'd much rather do UOA's than try to make a calculation.

A calculation would only tell you what your oil should be doing.


07 Lincoln Navigator M1 0w-40/FU
68 Charger R/T / Supercharged 440 VR1/DBL7349
07 Ram 3500 4x4 / Cummins 6.7 /DBL7349
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Re: Horsepower VS Oil Change Interval (OCI) [Re: jon_a_127] #4117412 06/07/16 03:09 AM
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Ducked Offline
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Originally Posted By: jon_a_127


But I believe new oil got to be more horsepower than 5000 mile oil, right?


Why?

Belief (religion aside) should be based on evidence, or at least a rationale. I can't see either for that belief.

Any effects are likely to be so tiny as to be un-measurable, but if the used oil has sheared down the lower viscosity MIGHT allow the engine to develop more usable power.

Re: Horsepower VS Oil Change Interval (OCI) [Re: Ducked] #4117416 06/07/16 03:39 AM
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jon_a_127 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: jon_a_127


But I believe new oil got to be more horsepower than 5000 mile oil, right?


Why?

Belief (religion aside) should be based on evidence, or at least a rationale. I can't see either for that belief.

Because new oil isn't dark in color, but 5000 mile oil is. Dark color engine oil holds dirty contaminants, combustion by-products. That can't be good for lubrication, right? hence resulting in less lubricity.


08 PGO GMAX 200
14 ZX-6R 636
13 BMW 118i 1.6L DI 170hp 184lb-ft
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Re: Horsepower VS Oil Change Interval (OCI) [Re: jon_a_127] #4117419 06/07/16 04:01 AM
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UltrafanUK Offline
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The viscosity of new oil falls during use until the detergent additives have been used up, which in a normal OCI should not happen.
That means for a typical 5K mile OCI that the max power figure should be a fraction higher if the engine is in good order.

Re: Horsepower VS Oil Change Interval (OCI) [Re: jon_a_127] #4117462 06/07/16 06:31 AM
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Quattro Pete Offline
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Originally Posted By: jon_a_127
But I believe new oil got to be more horsepower than 5000 mile oil, right?

I believe just the opposite is true. Oil typically thins out throughout the course of a typical OCI, and thoretically thinner oil should result in higher HP, albeit the difference would be very minimal.

Re: Horsepower VS Oil Change Interval (OCI) [Re: jon_a_127] #4117615 06/07/16 10:23 AM
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440Magnum Offline
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Originally Posted By: jon_a_127

But I believe new oil got to be more horsepower than 5000 mile oil, right?


There's absolutely no fundamental scientific reason for that to be true, so long as all the additive levels are still good and most oils have sufficient levels for FAR more than 5k mile OCIs.

Furthermore, change in viscosity is going to have FAR more effect than any hypothetical change in the oil's ability to lubricate due to normal levels of additive depletion and contaminant loading, and viscosity tends to go DOWN (less power robbed) until oxidation thickening becomes dominant very, very late in the oil's useful life.


'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
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'99 XJ 4x4 4.0/AX15, '14 WK2 4x4 3.6/8HP
Re: Horsepower VS Oil Change Interval (OCI) [Re: jon_a_127] #4117628 06/07/16 10:45 AM
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BrocLuno Offline
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OK, so multi's shear down with age (for a while) so you should see an infinitesimally small gain as the oil thins... Then they start to build oxidation by-products which thicken oil. So that gain will be going away.

the trick is to get the old oil out before oxidation thickening can occur to any great degree... You pick the mileage when that will happen in any particular engine...


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Horsepower VS Oil Change Interval (OCI) [Re: 440Magnum] #4117633 06/07/16 10:53 AM
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I have run many engines in the 550 to 950 HP range on the engine dyno. The variations from run to run are enough to make it difficult to see very small variations in output.

I dont think that new vs. used oil of the exact same type would show enough significance in a dyno run to be significant. In some break in runs on the dyno I have changed the oil before proceeding to the power runs. I didn't really notice anything, but I wasn't looking for changes due to oil, as well as the oil was only 2 hours old.

Im sure it makes some difference, but probably not much and Im not even sure if it would be a gain or loss of power.

I have learned that almost everything can make a change in output. But until you test it you dont actually know if it is a gain or loss and how much.


Interests - motorsports/engine building/tuning
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Re: Horsepower VS Oil Change Interval (OCI) [Re: jon_a_127] #4117647 06/07/16 11:13 AM
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Different test have been developed for different purposes. To determine whether or not a lubricant is fit for continued service you analyze the lubricant.


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Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30 in the crankcase. Red Line in the gearboxes.
Re: Horsepower VS Oil Change Interval (OCI) [Re: jon_a_127] #4117674 06/07/16 11:40 AM
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4wheeldog Offline
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Oil cannot produce horsepower. Too thick an oil will limit output by increasing frictional losses. And too thin of an oil can allow loss of pressure past the rings.

But....With any suitable oil in the crankcase, for any reasonable OCI, the difference in actual engine output would not be more than a percentage point or two.

Re: Horsepower VS Oil Change Interval (OCI) [Re: jon_a_127] #4117676 06/07/16 11:41 AM
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JimPghPA Offline
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One of the most useful engineering tools is signal to noise ratio.

In the case of trying to determine the oil quality by looking at the engine horsepower output, compared to doing a used oil analysis you would be taking a giant step in the wrong direction with respect to signal to noise ratio. There are just too many things (noise) that can cause problems in what you are looking at, and the signal (the small amount of HP change) is too small for it to show the results you are looking for.


Boy will I be happy when ALL vehicles on public roads are autonomous.


JimPghPa

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