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Filter off, could see bottom of can, problem? #4113192 06/02/16 10:09 AM
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JeepWJ19 Offline OP
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Hi all, so I've been chasing a cold start tick I've had in 4.0 for quite awhile. It's not too bad but it does get annoying but never lasts for more than a minute of driving.

The 4.0 only sees PHM or PYB.

At one point I was able to (by fluke idk) solve it even in 16*F weather with PYB 10w30 5qt with 1qt of 5w30 and the stock OEM MOPAR-MO090. I've always used the TG16 or MOPAR filters, whichever one I felt like picking up over the past 4 years of ownership of the Jeep.

Recently I was toying with the idea (after numerous people who said they've had success) with running a slightly longer oil filter like a TG8A, FL1A, 51515, PL30001 etc. So I decided to try the PYB combo again but this time use the TG8A for gits and shiggles. The start up tick was more audible and lasted much much longer. Even while driving with the engine warm once the RPMs got <= 1000 it would tick, which never happened before. If I shut off the jeep hot and ran inside a store and come out as soon as I'd start it, horribly bad ticking until I pressed the gas and got the rpms up. I originally thought that maybe the PYB was too thin so I drained the oil and refilled with PHM (same combo of 10w30 and 5w30). Nope, still happened.

So I thought it might be the longer filter. I unscrew the filter and some oil drained out unscrewing it (oil filter on the 4.0 is mounted sideways to the block, horizontal... that's the word lol). I look at the can and i can see the bottom metal. I thought that was weird as I've always seen oil at the bottom of the filter every oil change. I shrug it off and put the stock sized TG16 back in and by the time I got the TG16 on and double checked oil level I noticed that TG8A now had oil on the bottom. The TG16 was still ticking cold start but the ticking at hot idle disappeared... or so I thought. It didn't happen as soon but if I let it idle long enough the horrible ticking would eventually come. Again, weird as I've never had this happen but the plus side was that it no longer ticked at hot when the RPMs reached <= 1000. Still worried though I decided to buy two new filters.

I decided to buy the FL1A and the Mopar stock MO-090 as a backup. So I unscrew the TG16 and some oil drains out when unscrewing the filter as usual, and again I set the can vertical and I could see the bottom of the can with no oil. What the heck, man? So I fill the FL1A and put it on, again double checking the oil level and I noticed that that the TG16 now had oil on the bottom of the can.

The FL1A is still in the Jeep and has been for couple of weeks as cold start tick has tremendously shortened (not even making it out of the development but we will see how it does in the winter when it's a tad worse lol) and I've never heard my 4.0 so quiet when hot at idle.

So what I'm wondering is, was there anything wrong with these last two TG filters that when I unscrewed them I could see to the very bottom of the can or is it something with my Jeep? I've never seen this happen before as usually when I unscrew the filters a little of oil drains out but when I look in the can there was always oil in it, never being able to see the bottom.

Just really confused at this point wondering why all of a sudden this happened.

Thanks


2002 Jeep WJ 4.0 | Mobil 1 HM 5w30 |
TG8A | 2.5" lift | 148k miles

Software Engineer :]
Re: Filter off, could see bottom of can, problem? [Re: JeepWJ19] #4113268 06/02/16 11:40 AM
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DudeNiceRide Offline
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I don't know enough about the 4.0L, but...

1. Does it use a pressure bypass/relief valve in the block or in the filter mount (aka: not just in filter)? Could be stuck or sticky.

2. Does it use any kind of screen filter in the valves or even the pickup that might be blocked? I know my Silverado 5.3L had a screen filter that would get filled with "stuff" after a 1Xk miles.

3. Sure that is the right filter for the 02 WJ 4.0? Make sure the gaskets are the same ID/OD, relief valve pressure are the same, and all that jazz. And just because the Mopar uses one pressure setting doesn't mean any/all the aftermarket filters follow suit. And just because the filter fits on the threads doesn't means its the right one.

Good luck!

Re: Filter off, could see bottom of can, problem? [Re: JeepWJ19] #4113287 06/02/16 12:00 PM
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440Magnum Offline
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What kind of oil pressure are you showing on your 4.0? Preferably with an honest mechanical gauge, not the liar on the dashboard (but the liar on the dashboard is better than nothing). How many miles has it racked up?

4.0s run smallblock chevy-like (that is to say LOW) oil pressure from the factory- usually less than 40 psi hot at speed. Combine that with the fact that the oil pump end-plate wears over time effectively lowering the pump's output, and the cam bearings tend to open up and bleed a significant volume, and you can wind up with an engine that has really minimal oil pressure. Been there, done that on an 01 XJ 4.0. The easy fix is a high-volume oil pump, which is widely available. The catch is that it requires dropping the pan to install.

I don't really understand your problem with "seeing the bottom of the can" after the filter has been emptied- that's pretty normal. Then as the media drains, it'll puddle oil back in the dome again over a minute or two- you can empty it and see the bottom again, and if you let it sit again more oil will puddle.

There's no harm in sticking a the 51515/8A/1A sized filter- the extra volume and media area is a good thing and the other specs (thread, gasket, bypass) are identical to the shorty filter installed from the factory.


'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 XJ 4x4 4.0/AX15, '14 WK2 4x4 3.6/8HP
Re: Filter off, could see bottom of can, problem? [Re: JeepWJ19] #4113289 06/02/16 12:03 PM
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HemiHawk Offline
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I've only had my 4.0 for 12,000 miles, but between the filter it came with (cheap STP) and the two i've used (PP1 and MC FL1A), the FL1A seemed to quiet the engine down. No actual evidence to back this up. Just seems to run smoother with that filter even over the more expensive PP1.


2015 Mustang GT
2017 VW GTI sport
1995 Mustang GTS
Re: Filter off, could see bottom of can, problem? [Re: DudeNiceRide] #4113353 06/02/16 01:06 PM
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JeepWJ19 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: DudeNiceRide
I don't know enough about the 4.0L, but...

1. Does it use a pressure bypass/relief valve in the block or in the filter mount (aka: not just in filter)? Could be stuck or sticky.

2. Does it use any kind of screen filter in the valves or even the pickup that might be blocked? I know my Silverado 5.3L had a screen filter that would get filled with "stuff" after a 1Xk miles.

3. Sure that is the right filter for the 02 WJ 4.0? Make sure the gaskets are the same ID/OD, relief valve pressure are the same, and all that jazz. And just because the Mopar uses one pressure setting doesn't mean any/all the aftermarket filters follow suit. And just because the filter fits on the threads doesn't means its the right one.

Good luck!


1. I honestly have no idea. Considering how old the design of the 4.0 is, It'd be safe to assume not.

2. I don't believe there is any screen

3. Yes the filters are correct


2002 Jeep WJ 4.0 | Mobil 1 HM 5w30 |
TG8A | 2.5" lift | 148k miles

Software Engineer :]
Re: Filter off, could see bottom of can, problem? [Re: 440Magnum] #4113365 06/02/16 01:15 PM
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JeepWJ19 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
What kind of oil pressure are you showing on your 4.0? Preferably with an honest mechanical gauge, not the liar on the dashboard (but the liar on the dashboard is better than nothing). How many miles has it racked up?

4.0s run smallblock chevy-like (that is to say LOW) oil pressure from the factory- usually less than 40 psi hot at speed. Combine that with the fact that the oil pump end-plate wears over time effectively lowering the pump's output, and the cam bearings tend to open up and bleed a significant volume, and you can wind up with an engine that has really minimal oil pressure. Been there, done that on an 01 XJ 4.0. The easy fix is a high-volume oil pump, which is widely available. The catch is that it requires dropping the pan to install.

I don't really understand your problem with "seeing the bottom of the can" after the filter has been emptied- that's pretty normal. Then as the media drains, it'll puddle oil back in the dome again over a minute or two- you can empty it and see the bottom again, and if you let it sit again more oil will puddle.

There's no harm in sticking a the 51515/8A/1A sized filter- the extra volume and media area is a good thing and the other specs (thread, gasket, bypass) are identical to the shorty filter installed from the factory.


Don't know how the dashboard can be a liar unless you are talking about the dummy guage. Mine uses a live gauge but I don't have a mechanical gauge on me. Every cold start the oil pressure is about 55-58 psi. Hot at idle is around 30psi. I can see the oil pressure gauge fluctuate between 28-32 psi usually. While driving normally yeah it's about 40-45 psi and mashing the pedal gets up to 58 psi area. Never goes above 60.

It's on the upper half of 133k miles.

I don't know why I was concerned, I guess because I never had that happen before. I've always had a tad oil that drained out when I unscrewed it but as soon as I turned it vertical there would be oil on the bottom before I turned it upside down to drain. It gave me the notion that it was not holding close to enough oil it should have been..... but this is why I'm asking the question haha smile

But the ticking was really bad with the 8A and I have no idea why. Ticking at cold start, ticking when hot while idle was <= 1000 and starting back up when hot. Never had that happen before and that's what caused me to think that somehow the 8A and the 16 were somehow not holding enough oil they have done in the past for me. Don't know.

As far as I can tell, my oil pressure is pretty nominal/good/normal so I wouldn't think it is a pump issue. I understand to never trust your gauges but I honestly see nothing wrong with electrical live data being shown vs an old school mechanical gauge.

Thanks

Last edited by JeepWJ19; 06/02/16 01:16 PM.

2002 Jeep WJ 4.0 | Mobil 1 HM 5w30 |
TG8A | 2.5" lift | 148k miles

Software Engineer :]
Re: Filter off, could see bottom of can, problem? [Re: JeepWJ19] #4113451 06/02/16 02:54 PM
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Posts: 8,827
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440Magnum Offline
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Originally Posted By: JeepWJ19
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
What kind of oil pressure are you showing on your 4.0? Preferably with an honest mechanical gauge, not the liar on the dashboard (but the liar on the dashboard is better than nothing). How many miles has it racked up?

4.0s run smallblock chevy-like (that is to say LOW) oil pressure from the factory- usually less than 40 psi hot at speed. Combine that with the fact that the oil pump end-plate wears over time effectively lowering the pump's output, and the cam bearings tend to open up and bleed a significant volume, and you can wind up with an engine that has really minimal oil pressure. Been there, done that on an 01 XJ 4.0. The easy fix is a high-volume oil pump, which is widely available. The catch is that it requires dropping the pan to install.

I don't really understand your problem with "seeing the bottom of the can" after the filter has been emptied- that's pretty normal. Then as the media drains, it'll puddle oil back in the dome again over a minute or two- you can empty it and see the bottom again, and if you let it sit again more oil will puddle.

There's no harm in sticking a the 51515/8A/1A sized filter- the extra volume and media area is a good thing and the other specs (thread, gasket, bypass) are identical to the shorty filter installed from the factory.


Don't know how the dashboard can be a liar unless you are talking about the dummy guage. Mine uses a live gauge but I don't have a mechanical gauge on me. Every cold start the oil pressure is about 55-58 psi. Hot at idle is around 30psi. I can see the oil pressure gauge fluctuate between 28-32 psi usually. While driving normally yeah it's about 40-45 psi and mashing the pedal gets up to 58 psi area. Never goes above 60.


The "live" gauges can still vary wildly in accuracy- saying "60" when a mechanical gauge will say "40". Both my XJ's have been on the accurate end of things, not being more than maybe 5-10 psi off, but I've known people who had very inaccurate dash gauges. The sender can change calibration as it ages, too. My Ram, on the other hand, has a true "dummy" gauge. Goes to mid scale if the pressure is over 3 PSI, never moves. Its an idiot light sender wired to a gauge. That's why it now has a real gauge on top of the dash...

As for the filters, I suspect the TG8A just had a typical Fram low-end anti-drainback valve that caused your ticking. Once a lifter gets a slug of air in it, it can take a long time to work it all out. That's one of the reasons the only Fram I use is the Ultra (XG series) with a better ADBV.


'66 Dodge Polara & '69 Dodge Coronet R/T both 440/727
'08 Ram 1500 4.7/545RFE
'12 Challenger SRT8 392/6-speed
'99 XJ 4x4 4.0/AX15, '14 WK2 4x4 3.6/8HP
Re: Filter off, could see bottom of can, problem? [Re: 440Magnum] #4113480 06/02/16 03:36 PM
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JeepWJ19 Offline OP
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The Oil Pressure Sending Unit is only a year old and it was reading the exact same as when the old was in. Whether it isn't accurate I am not sure of but I doubt it is off by a significant scale.


2002 Jeep WJ 4.0 | Mobil 1 HM 5w30 |
TG8A | 2.5" lift | 148k miles

Software Engineer :]
Re: Filter off, could see bottom of can, problem? [Re: JeepWJ19] #4113481 06/02/16 03:37 PM
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Sayjac Offline
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Quote:
...was there anything wrong with these last two TG filters that when I unscrewed them I could see to the very bottom of the can...

Are you 100% sure you're seeing the bottom of the can? I suspect you are seeing the black button nylon type bypass with leaf spring down the center tube. I highly doubt you are seeing the "bottom of the can" on two TGs.

Linked are pics of a TG16 with that black button bypass/leaf spring, you can compare what you are referring to as the can bottom, which I assume means dome. So I doubt that is the cause of the ticking.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3917097/Fram_TG16_cut_open

Re: Filter off, could see bottom of can, problem? [Re: Sayjac] #4113542 06/02/16 05:34 PM
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JeepWJ19 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Quote:
...was there anything wrong with these last two TG filters that when I unscrewed them I could see to the very bottom of the can...

Are you 100% sure you're seeing the bottom of the can? I suspect you are seeing the black button nylon type bypass with leaf spring down the center tube. I highly doubt you are seeing the "bottom of the can" on two TGs.

Linked are pics of a TG16 with that black button bypass/leaf spring, you can compare what you are referring to as the can bottom, which I assume means dome. So I doubt that is the cause of the ticking.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3917097/Fram_TG16_cut_open


Yes sorry, I saw that black button bypass/leaf spring. I just called it the bottom. Idk what did then as I'm purely lost because I swear it never ticked below 1000RPM when it was hot or when at idle. And to play it safe if the PYB was too thin I changed to PHM and it still did it. Maybe it was a fluke?


2002 Jeep WJ 4.0 | Mobil 1 HM 5w30 |
TG8A | 2.5" lift | 148k miles

Software Engineer :]
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