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Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count #4109205
05/28/16 07:08 PM
05/28/16 07:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,786
Arizona
bulwnkl Offline OP
bulwnkl  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,786
Arizona
This is their MA-rated shared-sump fluid. I did a particle count only, on the new-in-the-bottle fluid. I have a UOA in the motorcycle section, too. Particle count there is noticeably cleaner:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4107645/Honda_NC700X_Red_Line_10W30


4 mic 29178
6 mic 9931
14 mic 497
21 mic 131
38 mic 16
70 mic 6
ISO 22/20/16

Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: bulwnkl] #4109214
05/28/16 07:15 PM
05/28/16 07:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,569
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
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'Stralia
Thanks for posting.

That and your UOA provides another really good data point on fiters and their effect.

I'm always going to change the filter a couple of weeks after changing the oil now.

Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: Shannow] #4109280
05/28/16 08:23 PM
05/28/16 08:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
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Taiwan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Thanks for posting.

That and your UOA provides another really good data point on fiters and their effect.

I'm always going to change the filter a couple of weeks after changing the oil now.


Well, yeh....BUT.....the obvious, if naive, questions seem to be...

(a) SHOULD it have so many bits in it out of the bottle?
(b) Is it NORMAL? (similar question, but not the same).
(c) WHAT are they?

My understanding was that 4 microns is too small to be removed by a new standard oil filter, but I suppose a used one might be able to trap them.


Last edited by Ducked; 05/28/16 08:29 PM.
Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: bulwnkl] #4109283
05/28/16 08:28 PM
05/28/16 08:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
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Kalifornia Kollective
Agglomerations?


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: BrocLuno] #4109290
05/28/16 08:31 PM
05/28/16 08:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
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Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
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Taiwan
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Agglomerations?


If that's the case, they might go back into solution in use, in which case filter performance is irrelevant.

Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: Shannow] #4109315
05/28/16 09:09 PM
05/28/16 09:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,786
Arizona
bulwnkl Offline OP
bulwnkl  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,786
Arizona
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Thanks for posting.

That and your UOA provides another really good data point on fiters and their effect.

I'm always going to change the filter a couple of weeks after changing the oil now.


You're welcome. smile

As to the filter change-- Eh... One could do that, and the old filter may filter better than a new one, but then one would 're-contaminate' the sump (in terms of particle count) with the new make-up oil when the filter is changed. It may or may not be worthwhile. For me, it's needlessly fiddly. Perhaps you should share some particle counts from your new strategy. smile

Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: Ducked] #4109319
05/28/16 09:15 PM
05/28/16 09:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,786
Arizona
bulwnkl Offline OP
bulwnkl  Offline OP
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Arizona
Originally Posted By: Ducked


(a) SHOULD it have so many bits in it out of the bottle?
(b) Is it NORMAL? (similar question, but not the same).
(c) WHAT are they?

My understanding was that 4 microns is too small to be removed by a new standard oil filter, but I suppose a used one might be able to trap them.



It is normal. Some blenders or marketers deliver cleaner oil, some dirtier, but it's surprising to most how not-clean 'new' oil is.

Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: bulwnkl] #4109338
05/28/16 09:50 PM
05/28/16 09:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
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'Stralia
Shannow Offline
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'Stralia
Yeah, we learned a long time ago that the hydraulics on the turbine bypass needed filtering down to 5um on the way out of the drum, or we could never keep the system in spec.

Here's some of Stinky Peterson's VOAs with particle count.

Some blenders do a MUCH better job, and some only on their professional range.




Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: bulwnkl] #4109350
05/28/16 10:02 PM
05/28/16 10:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,786
Arizona
bulwnkl Offline OP
bulwnkl  Offline OP
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Arizona
Quite. I believe it is fair to say that we can expect 'run-of-the-mill' consumer motor oils to be fairly dirty.

Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: bulwnkl] #4109400
05/28/16 11:10 PM
05/28/16 11:10 PM
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Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
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Taiwan
So this is "dirt" (which I take to be mostly silica unless from an unusual source) rather than something derived from the oil, as in "agglomerates" above?

I vaguely remember a Morgan driver (I think) long ago saying something like "You don't put THAT stuff in your engine, do you? referring to Castrol GTX straight from the can.

Something about filtering it through chamois leather before use, which I'd have thought would be impossibly slow.

Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: bulwnkl] #4109404
05/28/16 11:20 PM
05/28/16 11:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
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'Stralia
Shannow Offline
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'Stralia
Thus my change the filter some weeks after the OCI...the filter is at it's best filtering at that point, and get the junk from the bottle out ASAP.

the residual has some partially reacted additives in it, so should be better than virgin oil at that point (wear wise, not contaminant)

Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: Shannow] #4109421
05/29/16 12:24 AM
05/29/16 12:24 AM
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Indiana
BobFout Offline
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Indiana
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Thus my change the filter some weeks after the OCI...the filter is at it's best filtering at that point, and get the junk from the bottle out ASAP.

the residual has some partially reacted additives in it, so should be better than virgin oil at that point (wear wise, not contaminant)


Isn't this an exercise in diminishing returns? You could change your oil and filter every 3 months / 5,000 km and not have any meaningful additional wear compared to what you describe? Or is this the difference between an engine that requires a rebuild at 500K km vs. 300K km?


2003 VW Jetta TDI (Sold) / 2015 VW GTI 2.0T
Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: BobFout] #4109425
05/29/16 01:11 AM
05/29/16 01:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,569
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
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'Stralia
Originally Posted By: BobFout
Isn't this an exercise in diminishing returns? You could change your oil and filter every 3 months / 5,000 km and not have any meaningful additional wear compared to what you describe? Or is this the difference between an engine that requires a rebuild at 500K km vs. 300K km?


Almost certainly...

But it's no skin off my nose if I change the filter a month after the oil...I'll be checking something or pumping tyres at that point anyway.

explained more a few weeks ago

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4096319/New_oil_change_regime_-_half_c

Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: bulwnkl] #4109430
05/29/16 02:08 AM
05/29/16 02:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,653
down in the park
Jetronic Offline
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down in the park
Yes I decided to do a similar thing (though I go 2 oil changes with 1 filter).

I was reading the toilet paper filter thread yesterday. Very interesting and fairly cheap, but there's no rom at all under my hood and I don't want long oil lines external of the engine.


AR Giulietta 2.0 JTDM-2 -- Total Quartz 9000 Energy 0w30
Hankook Ventus Prime 2 215/50R17 (front)
Pirelli P7 Cinturato 225/45R17 (rear)
Re: Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count [Re: Ducked] #4109657
05/29/16 09:19 AM
05/29/16 09:19 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,786
Arizona
bulwnkl Offline OP
bulwnkl  Offline OP
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,786
Arizona
Originally Posted By: Ducked
So this is "dirt" (which I take to be mostly silica unless from an unusual source)


Why would you assume that? Do you see high silicon in short-duration UOAs, but lower in longer-duration ones? I don't.

Some may be 'dirt,' but I suppose a lot of it is 'stuff' in the plumbing, both at the blender and up- and down-stream.

Particle counts are super-inexpensive, so it wouldn't be tough (expensive) to track particle counts across the early portion of an OCI, if a person wanted to _know_, rather than blindly speculating based on non-automotive, non-engine, non-consumer-cost-effective notions. Then again, one would still be speculating as to how much, or even whether, those particle counts were causing any wear or issues that ever would or even could show up in the life of their vehicle.

I did what I did because of the transmission portion of this sump, even though I suspected the filter would 'mask' much of the utility. I then did the count on the clean fluid because, again, it's super cheap, and I don't mind sharing here.

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