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Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) #4107677 05/26/16 11:14 PM
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HTSS_TR Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: motortrend.com
The fuel economy advantages and subsequent money savings of hybrid vehicles over their non-hybrid counterparts is often a major consideration when making a new vehicle purchase. But how much does a hybrid really save you? More precisely, how long does it take to even out the higher up-front cost of a hybrid over the often-cheaper non-hybrid? Here are 10 examples of some of the more popular hybrids on the market and how long itd take you to start raking in the savings compared to buying a non-hybrid version (or equivalent in a few cases).

Weve used the latest average national fuel prices ($2.24-$2.70) and a mix of 55 percent stop-and-go driving to calculate the cost per year for each vehicle when driving 15,000 and 30,000 miles each year.


The best is Lincoln MKZ Hybrid, because it costs the same as non-hybrid.

The worse is Lexus RX 450h over RX 350, RX 450h is more powerful than RX 350 but it takes 103 years to recover the upfront cost.

Originally Posted By: motortrend.com
If your aim is low operating costs, Toyota has one of the best reputations in the business for cheap running. All else being equal, what about those tantalizing fuel economy numbers the tiny Prius c and snazzy new Prius posted up (53/46 mpg for the c, and 54/50 mpg for the Prius)? Against the lowly Corolla, which is estimated by the EPA to get just 27/36 mpg city/highway with a four-speed automatic, the two hybrids are no match in the long game: five years for the absolute cheapest Prius c and an absurd your-kid-will-drive-it 16 years and 5 months to make up the difference between a cheap Corolla and the Prius Eco.

Not talking about Prius's ugly looking exterior.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/hybrids-how-long-takes-get-money-back/


'00 MB E430
'04 Honda S2000
'06 Volvo V70
'14 Honda Accord LX
"Throwing food away is like stealing it from the poor and hungry" Pope Francis
Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: HTSS_TR] #4107729 05/27/16 02:30 AM
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Andy636 Offline
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Hybrids and electrics are nothing but a hype for the time being.

Plenty of cars out there than can do 40MPG in horrible day to day REAL LIFE DRIVING so why bother with a hybrid, as for the electric ones...let's not fool ourselves...even if you get free electricity, it will take a long time time to offset the vehicle acquisition price.

Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: HTSS_TR] #4107745 05/27/16 04:46 AM
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Burt Offline
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They actually think this is notable? With today's low gas prices, I think I knew the answer before they sharpened their pencil.

Ponder how the economics of wind, solar, coal and nuclear went south with dropping natural gas as well.


2011 RX350 61k miles
2015 Fiesta SFE eco-boost 31k miles
Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: HTSS_TR] #4107756 05/27/16 05:46 AM
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fdcg27 Offline
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Any savings involved in running a hybrid are obviously dependent on fuel costs.
Hybrid vehicle market pricing is also heavily dependent on the current cost of fuel. There is a positive relationship between market fuel costs and the pricing of hybrid vehicles.
Now would be a good time to buy a hybrid or any other very economical vehicle, since their current pricing reflects the low current pricing of fuel.
The only question is when fuel costs start to rise significantly and that may be years in the future.
Still, if the economics of hybrid cars are so questionable, then why are most of the cabs in Socal hybrids?


18 Accord Hybrid 10K HGMO 0W-20
17 Forester 24K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 115K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: HTSS_TR] #4107770 05/27/16 06:27 AM
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madRiver Online Content
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Fuel savings are in the city cycle not overall. So in certain cases like short trip, city or taxi service they have distinct advantage. If cycle is more towards highway mpg the gap has considerably narrowed and agree no significant advantage when balanced against the overprice of hybrid tech.

Last edited by madRiver; 05/27/16 06:28 AM.
Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: Andy636] #4107782 05/27/16 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: Andy636
Hybrids and electrics are nothing but a hype for the time being.

Plenty of cars out there than can do 40MPG in horrible day to day REAL LIFE DRIVING so why bother with a hybrid, as for the electric ones...let's not fool ourselves...even if you get free electricity, it will take a long time time to offset the vehicle acquisition price.


I highly doubt you'll find most US vehicles doing >40 in real day to day traffic with stop lights and stop and go. Please provide prove able objective to the contrary if you disagree.

*************************

As for me, I consolidated three cars, and my highest was consistently at 35mpg ish. The combined increase in interior space, fact that I don't get 40 unless I drive like an idiot and blaze heat (more like 45-50 and if I do all city for a tank it can be much over 50). A car like a Prius is on par with s Corolla and Camry. My accord is... An accord. With a slightly smaller trunk that's not in practice any smaller as it's the same as the vehicles it replaced, which had mush less interior volume.

All that said, I probably wouldn't have paid $30kfir a new one (or bought s new car at all), but the $25k I paid was compellingly good.

I'd live an rx450h, but the value proposition isn't there.

Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: JHZR2] #4107786 05/27/16 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Andy636
Hybrids and electrics are nothing but a hype for the time being.

Plenty of cars out there than can do 40MPG in horrible day to day REAL LIFE DRIVING so why bother with a hybrid, as for the electric ones...let's not fool ourselves...even if you get free electricity, it will take a long time time to offset the vehicle acquisition price.


I highly doubt you'll find most US vehicles doing >40 in real day to day traffic with stop lights and stop and go. Please provide prove able objective to the contrary if you disagree.


+1

However, my Civic will top out at around 37 mpg, if driven efficiently. Lowest has been closer to 32 mpg, in the winter months.

With that said, can a Prius (regular size) be compared to a Civic in terms of practicality? I wouldn't think so.


'14 Forester XT FA20DIT (Cobb Stage 1)
Edge 0W-40 + FU filter (64,774 miles)
'15 Legacy FB25 (OEM Stage, uh, neg. 7?)
Magnatec 5W-20 + FU filter (47,300 miles)
Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: HTSS_TR] #4107789 05/27/16 07:01 AM
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I'm now commuting 120 miles a day and I did the math on a hybrid. It would certainly take too long to cover the costs, especially since they get poorer highway mileage than in the city.

Also, you have to think about whether or not the batteries will last long enough to make up your cost. Most hybrids use a battery pack made up of 18650 batteries run in banks of series, then linked up in parallel. These are the same batteries that many business laptops use. How long before you stop seeing performance out of a laptop battery? For me it is 2-3 years. You add to that the heat the battery pack will experience in a vehicle. Heat degrades Lithium batteries quickly, so they are going to degrade faster in this type of application, especially if it gets hot in the summer.

My wife's cousin had a 2nd generation Prius he had owned since new. He used it to commute in congested Philadelphia. I think the battery bit the dust at 150k. It wasn't worth fixing and it traded it in for pocket change on a new Subaru. He did the math and he never made that hybrid premium up through the life of the vehicle, especially when you consider how much value he lost when the batteries died.

Until battery technology improves drastically, I won't be buying a hybrid or plug-in hybrid.

Last edited by SF0059; 05/27/16 07:04 AM.

2014 Honda Odyssey EX-L/RES: 54K mi, M1 0w-40 & FU, VCMuzzler V2
2017 Mazda 6 Touring 6MT: 22k mi, M1 AFE 0w20, OEM Filter
Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: HTSS_TR] #4107792 05/27/16 07:04 AM
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As of now and unless gas hit $5/gallon, I don't see any reason to get a hybrid. I don't get it the attraction.

However, I do like vehicles like the Chevy Volt...where you can drive up to 50 miles on just the battery before the engine starts. I think that would appeal to a lot of people who have short commutes to work.

I drive 6 miles to work. Drive 6 miles home. The grocery store is about the same distance away. I could do all of this and never burn a drop of gas. That's pretty cool. And when I need to get on the highway, no worries, the drives pretty efficiently there too.


2018 Chevy Silverado 3500HD 6.0L Gas: RLI 10w30
2010 Accord-LX K24: MaxLife 5w30 + Torco MPZ
2014 CR-V LX K24: M1 0w30
Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: HTSS_TR] #4107797 05/27/16 07:08 AM
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Car manufacturers will continue to engineer, build and sell hybrids, plug-ins etc, because they are forced to, due to rising fuel efficiency standards. The consumer no longer determines what products are offered and succeed. The gov't has taken over that role.
You will pay for the extra costs either in tax payer funded car purchase subsidies, higher overall car prices to fund hybrid development, and road taxes per mile driven as cars become more fuel efficient thereby reducing the tax haul from fuel taxes.


2019 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit 5.7L Hemi
2019 RAV4 Limited Hybrid
2016 Sorento SX V6 AWD
2010 Mazda 3 2.0L
Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: HTSS_TR] #4107818 05/27/16 07:35 AM
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Weird, this is just like deja vue... Wasn't this sort of article all the rage when hybrids first came out? Odd, I recall gas prices spiking hard a few years after that, and suddenly those hybrids weren't so bad after all. Now no one can understand the need for hybrids. Again.

I'm probably being too harsh. The general population is seemingly unwilling to consider long term costs and long term planning. I guess articles like these would be good for them, give them real examples of how these will likely cost more for the typical term of ownership, and maybe even prod them into doing the math themselves. Then again... probably not.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 187k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 153k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 209k, his
Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: HTSS_TR] #4107828 05/27/16 07:49 AM
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I personally owned a few and never thought or cared about recovering the cost. Plus I can get a hybrid Fusion for pennies over a regular one. So that math does not work.

Yeah I can get 22 mpg in my F350 just like cars can get 40 mpg. However as soon as I hit one hill I'm back at 13 mpg.

Buy what you like......... recouping $$$ is for bean counters.

And the new Prius in its ugliness is actually cool because its different.

Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: Andy636] #4107840 05/27/16 08:12 AM
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supton Offline
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Originally Posted By: Andy636
Hybrids and electrics are nothing but a hype for the time being.

Plenty of cars out there than can do 40MPG in horrible day to day REAL LIFE DRIVING so why bother with a hybrid, as for the electric ones...let's not fool ourselves...even if you get free electricity, it will take a long time time to offset the vehicle acquisition price.


What vehicles pull off 40mpg regardless of sitting in traffic or blasting down the highway? You're not thinking of the vehicles overseas, are you?

I wouldn't mind having another 40mpg vehicle, again. Gas prices will go again, someday. I rather liked my TDi, but in the end, the turbo diesel was likely more expensive than a hybrid solution, but so much more fun to drive. But the argument of a dull hybrid vs small engine / small car is a different thread altogether.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 187k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 153k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 209k, his
Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: HTSS_TR] #4107853 05/27/16 08:39 AM
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The math changes if you look at lightly-used cars.

For example, around here I can get a 2014 Prius for $15K or a 2015 Focus for $14K. Over 80,000 miles of driving the Prius is about $1500 cheaper (just counting initial purchase price and fuel).

It's still not a huge deal, but it starts to make more sense.

Used Chevy Volts are also much cheaper than new ones. I found a 2013 for $14K. If you use pretty much 100% electric, that's cheaper than a 2015 Focus after you drive it home (granted the car is 2 years older).


2016 Mazda3 - 20,000 mi.
2011 Toyota Sienna - 100,000 mi.
Re: Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment) [Re: fdcg27] #4107859 05/27/16 08:42 AM
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wemay Offline
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Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Any savings involved in running a hybrid are obviously dependent on fuel costs.
Hybrid vehicle market pricing is also heavily dependent on the current cost of fuel. There is a positive relationship between market fuel costs and the pricing of hybrid vehicles.
Now would be a good time to buy a hybrid or any other very economical vehicle, since their current pricing reflects the low current pricing of fuel.
The only question is when fuel costs start to rise significantly and that may be years in the future.
Still, if the economics of hybrid cars are so questionable, then why are most of the cabs in Socal hybrids?


I couldn't have stated this any better.


2018 KIA Sportage LX 2.4 AWD:
EDGE 5W30, PH9688

2013 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T:
M1HM 10W30, ULTRA XG9688
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