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I'll trust Pablo ANY day over what the OP has posted as "factual information".
Amsoil - Strategic Direction
- Thread starter davison0976
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Originally Posted By: Justin251
Tell me. Did amsoil invent synthetic oil like thier website says?
Amsoil does not claim to have "invent(ed) synthetic oil" on their website or anywhere else. Amsoil was the first API registered synthetic oil and a number of other firsts. Synthetic ATF, long drains, etc. You will note that many other companies have followed.
Tell me. Did amsoil invent synthetic oil like thier website says?
Amsoil does not claim to have "invent(ed) synthetic oil" on their website or anywhere else. Amsoil was the first API registered synthetic oil and a number of other firsts. Synthetic ATF, long drains, etc. You will note that many other companies have followed.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
So why did they drop API certs ?
I think it was personal with Al frankly. And we may never know what [censored] him off. All I know is didn't like the API and he didn't like GM at some point.
So why did they drop API certs ?
I think it was personal with Al frankly. And we may never know what [censored] him off. All I know is didn't like the API and he didn't like GM at some point.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Shannow
So why did they drop API certs ?
I think it was personal with Al frankly. And we may never know what [censored] him off. All I know is didn't like the API and he didn't like GM at some point.
thanks Pablo
Originally Posted By: Shannow
So why did they drop API certs ?
I think it was personal with Al frankly. And we may never know what [censored] him off. All I know is didn't like the API and he didn't like GM at some point.
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
What benefit do you feel you would gain by running a "true PAO" oil?
Well said "true PAO" doesn't mean its a true synthetic.
What benefit do you feel you would gain by running a "true PAO" oil?
Well said "true PAO" doesn't mean its a true synthetic.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: davison0976
...But as soon as I had done that I realized, through research, that today's Amsoil ain't the same. Now it appears to be a Group III base oil with an extra shot of detergent. As if they are saying, - here you go, we've added an extra Tide for you, run it for 25K mile or 15K if you are not going too far, enjoy!
With that said, do you think Amsoil should introduce a true PAO line of motor oils in addition to what they have now?
Let me show you how your statements appears to me:
You submit a strawman based on your misunderstanding of how lubricants are developed and formulated, and then you create a proposition based on your further misinformation of what you think the components of Amsoil might be or should be.
Please identify what research papers you consulted.
From what I know about Amsoil, and I have been following this company since the early '70s, Amsoil has always had a high amount of detergency/dispersancy chemistry to insure long-term TBN and cleaning.
And please tell us what oil company has NOT changed formulations over the years as additive chemistry and base oils have improved.
Originally Posted By: davison0976
...here you go, we've added an extra Tide for you, run it for 25K mile or 15K if you are not going too far, enjoy!...
This has to be the most ridiculous statement I have seen in a long time and it simply shows how devoid of information the OP possesses, and thus we should not take the OP's comments seriously.
Very similar to the statements on how thin oils are equal to water.
...But as soon as I had done that I realized, through research, that today's Amsoil ain't the same. Now it appears to be a Group III base oil with an extra shot of detergent. As if they are saying, - here you go, we've added an extra Tide for you, run it for 25K mile or 15K if you are not going too far, enjoy!
With that said, do you think Amsoil should introduce a true PAO line of motor oils in addition to what they have now?
Let me show you how your statements appears to me:
You submit a strawman based on your misunderstanding of how lubricants are developed and formulated, and then you create a proposition based on your further misinformation of what you think the components of Amsoil might be or should be.
Please identify what research papers you consulted.
From what I know about Amsoil, and I have been following this company since the early '70s, Amsoil has always had a high amount of detergency/dispersancy chemistry to insure long-term TBN and cleaning.
And please tell us what oil company has NOT changed formulations over the years as additive chemistry and base oils have improved.
Originally Posted By: davison0976
...here you go, we've added an extra Tide for you, run it for 25K mile or 15K if you are not going too far, enjoy!...
This has to be the most ridiculous statement I have seen in a long time and it simply shows how devoid of information the OP possesses, and thus we should not take the OP's comments seriously.
Very similar to the statements on how thin oils are equal to water.
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Amsoil is definitely good oil, there is no doubt about it. But, it is just too expensive for what it offers.
I was interesting in their 5W40 that is BMW LL-04 approved. HTHS of 3.8cp? Good. Good TBN etc. However, NOACK is 10%. OK still. But, recently I bought Valvoline 5W40 MST. HTHS 3.7cp, good! NOACK, same like Amsoil. cst? Little bit lighter then Amsoil, which is not bad in Colorado winter in city driving. Price? $4.99 per quart. Now, is Amsoil that much better? Or for example Mobil1 5W30 ESP that I am using now? Valvline is approved for BMW LL-04, MB 229.51, Porsche A4, VW. It does not say meets etc, it says: approved.
I would really like to buy Amsoil, help independent company (they are independent right?) but price is just a killer.
I was interesting in their 5W40 that is BMW LL-04 approved. HTHS of 3.8cp? Good. Good TBN etc. However, NOACK is 10%. OK still. But, recently I bought Valvoline 5W40 MST. HTHS 3.7cp, good! NOACK, same like Amsoil. cst? Little bit lighter then Amsoil, which is not bad in Colorado winter in city driving. Price? $4.99 per quart. Now, is Amsoil that much better? Or for example Mobil1 5W30 ESP that I am using now? Valvline is approved for BMW LL-04, MB 229.51, Porsche A4, VW. It does not say meets etc, it says: approved.
I would really like to buy Amsoil, help independent company (they are independent right?) but price is just a killer.
Quote:
From what I know about Amsoil, and I have been following this company since the early '70s, Amsoil has always had a high amount of detergency/dispersancy chemistry to insure long-term TBN and cleaning.
I think that is correct. You can see they load up their oils with calcium (some well over 3,500ppm).
Base oil wars is silly as most know. If I had to guess, I'd say the SS line is predominately PAO just based on the NOACK figures. That's a pretty good indicator of base oil type IMO.
I've always felt that among the boutique brands, Amsoil is one of the best.
From what I know about Amsoil, and I have been following this company since the early '70s, Amsoil has always had a high amount of detergency/dispersancy chemistry to insure long-term TBN and cleaning.
I think that is correct. You can see they load up their oils with calcium (some well over 3,500ppm).
Base oil wars is silly as most know. If I had to guess, I'd say the SS line is predominately PAO just based on the NOACK figures. That's a pretty good indicator of base oil type IMO.
I've always felt that among the boutique brands, Amsoil is one of the best.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Justin251
Tell me. Did amsoil invent synthetic oil like thier website says?
Amsoil does not claim to have "invent(ed) synthetic oil" on their website or anywhere else. Amsoil was the first API registered synthetic oil and a number of other firsts. Synthetic ATF, long drains, etc. You will note that many other companies have followed.
I actually think it was an amsoil vendor site when I think about it. Like www.bestoilever.com or something to that effect. There were quite a few of them when I was looking.
I specifically remember it saying "amsoil was the first to produce a synthetic oil." With amsoil logos all over the page.
I'm sure it's good stuff but just a bit too pricey for me.
Originally Posted By: Justin251
Tell me. Did amsoil invent synthetic oil like thier website says?
Amsoil does not claim to have "invent(ed) synthetic oil" on their website or anywhere else. Amsoil was the first API registered synthetic oil and a number of other firsts. Synthetic ATF, long drains, etc. You will note that many other companies have followed.
I actually think it was an amsoil vendor site when I think about it. Like www.bestoilever.com or something to that effect. There were quite a few of them when I was looking.
I specifically remember it saying "amsoil was the first to produce a synthetic oil." With amsoil logos all over the page.
I'm sure it's good stuff but just a bit too pricey for me.
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I hope Redline is and will be what they claim.
Equally, equivalent formulation reporting guidelines would put science/fact in front of the marketing dollar.
Equally, equivalent formulation reporting guidelines would put science/fact in front of the marketing dollar.
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
So, you're saying that Redline is mostly PAO with some ester? Based on their marketing material, they would have us believe that it is predominantly ester.
We'd have to have one of our heavy hitters confirm, but I'm pretty sure Pablo is right on that.
So, you're saying that Redline is mostly PAO with some ester? Based on their marketing material, they would have us believe that it is predominantly ester.
We'd have to have one of our heavy hitters confirm, but I'm pretty sure Pablo is right on that.
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: Pablo
davison0976 said:
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: davison0976
I started using Amsoil in early 2000's. Back then company wasn't afraid to explicitly state they sell PAO oil. Why would anyone want to buy Motul if we Americans had a company with a similar or better product in our own backyard. I drove my car hard, I was a lot more of a hard head too, and the engine kept purring.
Then after being mostly away for a good number of years and finally coming back for good in one piece I bought a new car. Naturally, I had converted to Amsoil. But as soon as I had done that I realized, through research, that today's Amsoil ain't the same. Now it appears to be a Group III base oil with an extra shot of detergent. As if they are saying, - here you go, we've added an extra Tide for you, run it for 25K mile or 15K if you are not going too far, enjoy!
I personally think it was a strategic mistake on their part. They abolished a product that was the core of their success and recognition among automotive enthusiasts like myself. I will probably not exaggerate if I say I felt betrayed.
With that said, do you think Amsoil should introduce a true PAO line of motor oils in addition to what they have now?
Amsoil has never, ever, been 100% PAO. Some marketing person thought it would be smart to put that on bottles and cases for little while and I told them: "Dumb move". Shortly later, that label was gone for good.
The SS oils are not Grp III. I know Amsoil's statements on base oils seem as clear as mud to people who somehow think they are getting something they think is better when they assume one base oil is god's gift - and you know I agree to some extent - but Amsoil awhile back (this is NOT recent here) chose some ambiguous words about their formulations. So be it. They chose not get into "ingredient" wars.
You guys do know Redline is PAO and some ester, right?
Well, no oil is going to be 100% PAO because that would only be a PAO stock void of other ingredients that make oil an oil.
Based on your own statements do you see where the problem is? Amsoil these days has absolutely no information about base stock they use. There is no official certifications for the SS line oils, not even API SN. And, they want you to pay a premium. A consumer has to make a serious leap of faith to trust such a product. Isn't that score 3-0 Amsoil vs any customer who chose to buy their product?
If you are that knowledgeable, tell us how much does it cost to get and API certification? Is it really that expensive that Amsoil can't afford it? They do it for XL line. I get it that someone at the company doesn't like API institution, but that's no reason not to conduct business with a regulating authority.
I see some disperation coming from Amsoil. I dont's look at UOAs often, but it appears many Amsoil UOAs are published by trolls where it's not even their own car they are publishing a UOA for. If things continue the way they are I foresee a demise for the company in the next 3 to 5 years. I think if they restart a PAO line there is a chance of surviving. At least customer will know why are they paying a premium for the product.
Originally Posted By: davison0976
I started using Amsoil in early 2000's. Back then company wasn't afraid to explicitly state they sell PAO oil. Why would anyone want to buy Motul if we Americans had a company with a similar or better product in our own backyard. I drove my car hard, I was a lot more of a hard head too, and the engine kept purring.
Then after being mostly away for a good number of years and finally coming back for good in one piece I bought a new car. Naturally, I had converted to Amsoil. But as soon as I had done that I realized, through research, that today's Amsoil ain't the same. Now it appears to be a Group III base oil with an extra shot of detergent. As if they are saying, - here you go, we've added an extra Tide for you, run it for 25K mile or 15K if you are not going too far, enjoy!
I personally think it was a strategic mistake on their part. They abolished a product that was the core of their success and recognition among automotive enthusiasts like myself. I will probably not exaggerate if I say I felt betrayed.
With that said, do you think Amsoil should introduce a true PAO line of motor oils in addition to what they have now?
Amsoil has never, ever, been 100% PAO. Some marketing person thought it would be smart to put that on bottles and cases for little while and I told them: "Dumb move". Shortly later, that label was gone for good.
The SS oils are not Grp III. I know Amsoil's statements on base oils seem as clear as mud to people who somehow think they are getting something they think is better when they assume one base oil is god's gift - and you know I agree to some extent - but Amsoil awhile back (this is NOT recent here) chose some ambiguous words about their formulations. So be it. They chose not get into "ingredient" wars.
You guys do know Redline is PAO and some ester, right?
Well, no oil is going to be 100% PAO because that would only be a PAO stock void of other ingredients that make oil an oil.
Based on your own statements do you see where the problem is? Amsoil these days has absolutely no information about base stock they use. There is no official certifications for the SS line oils, not even API SN. And, they want you to pay a premium. A consumer has to make a serious leap of faith to trust such a product. Isn't that score 3-0 Amsoil vs any customer who chose to buy their product?
If you are that knowledgeable, tell us how much does it cost to get and API certification? Is it really that expensive that Amsoil can't afford it? They do it for XL line. I get it that someone at the company doesn't like API institution, but that's no reason not to conduct business with a regulating authority.
I see some disperation coming from Amsoil. I dont's look at UOAs often, but it appears many Amsoil UOAs are published by trolls where it's not even their own car they are publishing a UOA for. If things continue the way they are I foresee a demise for the company in the next 3 to 5 years. I think if they restart a PAO line there is a chance of surviving. At least customer will know why are they paying a premium for the product.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: davison0976
...But as soon as I had done that I realized, through research, that today's Amsoil ain't the same. Now it appears to be a Group III base oil with an extra shot of detergent. As if they are saying, - here you go, we've added an extra Tide for you, run it for 25K mile or 15K if you are not going too far, enjoy!
With that said, do you think Amsoil should introduce a true PAO line of motor oils in addition to what they have now?
Let me show you how your statements appears to me:
You submit a strawman based on your misunderstanding of how lubricants are developed and formulated, and then you create a proposition based on your further misinformation of what you think the components of Amsoil might be or should be.
Please identify what research papers you consulted.
From what I know about Amsoil, and I have been following this company since the early '70s, Amsoil has always had a high amount of detergency/dispersancy chemistry to insure long-term TBN and cleaning.
And please tell us what oil company has NOT changed formulations over the years as additive chemistry and base oils have improved.
Originally Posted By: davison0976
...here you go, we've added an extra Tide for you, run it for 25K mile or 15K if you are not going too far, enjoy!...
This has to be the most ridiculous statement I have seen in a long time and it simply shows how devoid of information the OP possesses, and thus we should not take the OP's comments seriously.
Very similar to the statements on how thin oils are equal to water.
Let's take your "strawman" metaphor as a basic premise. But isn't it the proclaimed experts like yourself who created it and were pimping PAO lubricants 10-15 years ago as the best thing that ever happened to mankind? Now, when US market no longer requires synthetic lubricants to be made of synthetic ingredients and everyone, and their sister, had converted to hydrocracked base stock you experience these psychotic outbursts at a sign of anyone mentioning PAO. This was mainly a business strategy question, which appears not to be your strongest forte.
No, I don't particularly care about how lubricants are formulated because that can't be much more than a monkey job. It's not like you are designing new molecules. Molecules that basic have been known for over 100 years now. Synthetic aspirin was created in the 60's, if not earlier, did you see what that molecule looks like? Formulation is about mixing existing ingredients and testing. It is a very intensive work, but a monkey job nevertheless, most of which has been outsourced to other continents I am sure.
The reference to Tide is a figurative speech. What's ridiculous is that you can't recognize that.
Originally Posted By: davison0976
...But as soon as I had done that I realized, through research, that today's Amsoil ain't the same. Now it appears to be a Group III base oil with an extra shot of detergent. As if they are saying, - here you go, we've added an extra Tide for you, run it for 25K mile or 15K if you are not going too far, enjoy!
With that said, do you think Amsoil should introduce a true PAO line of motor oils in addition to what they have now?
Let me show you how your statements appears to me:
You submit a strawman based on your misunderstanding of how lubricants are developed and formulated, and then you create a proposition based on your further misinformation of what you think the components of Amsoil might be or should be.
Please identify what research papers you consulted.
From what I know about Amsoil, and I have been following this company since the early '70s, Amsoil has always had a high amount of detergency/dispersancy chemistry to insure long-term TBN and cleaning.
And please tell us what oil company has NOT changed formulations over the years as additive chemistry and base oils have improved.
Originally Posted By: davison0976
...here you go, we've added an extra Tide for you, run it for 25K mile or 15K if you are not going too far, enjoy!...
This has to be the most ridiculous statement I have seen in a long time and it simply shows how devoid of information the OP possesses, and thus we should not take the OP's comments seriously.
Very similar to the statements on how thin oils are equal to water.
Let's take your "strawman" metaphor as a basic premise. But isn't it the proclaimed experts like yourself who created it and were pimping PAO lubricants 10-15 years ago as the best thing that ever happened to mankind? Now, when US market no longer requires synthetic lubricants to be made of synthetic ingredients and everyone, and their sister, had converted to hydrocracked base stock you experience these psychotic outbursts at a sign of anyone mentioning PAO. This was mainly a business strategy question, which appears not to be your strongest forte.
No, I don't particularly care about how lubricants are formulated because that can't be much more than a monkey job. It's not like you are designing new molecules. Molecules that basic have been known for over 100 years now. Synthetic aspirin was created in the 60's, if not earlier, did you see what that molecule looks like? Formulation is about mixing existing ingredients and testing. It is a very intensive work, but a monkey job nevertheless, most of which has been outsourced to other continents I am sure.
The reference to Tide is a figurative speech. What's ridiculous is that you can't recognize that.
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I don't use or follow Amsoil products, so I'm out of the loop. Got a source for their synthetic being group 3 now? Kind of hard to believe they'd charge $10+/quart for group 3, no matter how good the additives.
Sorry, I don't have the link at the moment but there is a fairly recent YouTube video comparing the ability to pour at about -40 F for 4 different 5w30 oils. Amsoil, M1, Royal Purple & Supertech dino.
It didn't look rigged to me. The M1 started running immediatly, mopping the floor with Amsoil. The presenter had lined up the oils in the expected order of performance (Ams 1st). The RP and ST were basically solids..
Not saying that makes the Amsoil bad at all, but don't think that would have happened if it were primarily PAO...
I don't use or follow Amsoil products, so I'm out of the loop. Got a source for their synthetic being group 3 now? Kind of hard to believe they'd charge $10+/quart for group 3, no matter how good the additives.
Sorry, I don't have the link at the moment but there is a fairly recent YouTube video comparing the ability to pour at about -40 F for 4 different 5w30 oils. Amsoil, M1, Royal Purple & Supertech dino.
It didn't look rigged to me. The M1 started running immediatly, mopping the floor with Amsoil. The presenter had lined up the oils in the expected order of performance (Ams 1st). The RP and ST were basically solids..
Not saying that makes the Amsoil bad at all, but don't think that would have happened if it were primarily PAO...
The strategic problem that the specialty blenders have is that the "specialty blends" no longer offer better performance than the commercial products they're supposed to be better than.
In engine oils, the specialty products are as good as the latest spec consumer products on the parameters that matter, surpassing the consumer blends only on parameters that don't make much difference in an engine. Gear oils are the same. Modern OEM gear oils today have better base stocks and additive packages than the specialty blends that were designed to compete with the old technology OEM products from two decades ago.
The specialty products that were vastly better than the 1990's OEM oils are no match for the 2016 factory products. The specialty blending community isn't fighting for market share any more - it's fighting to remain relevant.
In engine oils, the specialty products are as good as the latest spec consumer products on the parameters that matter, surpassing the consumer blends only on parameters that don't make much difference in an engine. Gear oils are the same. Modern OEM gear oils today have better base stocks and additive packages than the specialty blends that were designed to compete with the old technology OEM products from two decades ago.
The specialty products that were vastly better than the 1990's OEM oils are no match for the 2016 factory products. The specialty blending community isn't fighting for market share any more - it's fighting to remain relevant.
Originally Posted By: dew
Sorry, I don't have the link at the moment but there is a fairly recent YouTube video comparing the ability to pour at about -40 F for 4 different 5w30 oils. Amsoil, M1, Royal Purple & Supertech dino.
It didn't look rigged to me. The M1 started running immediatly, mopping the floor with Amsoil. The presenter had lined up the oils in the expected order of performance (Ams 1st). The RP and ST were basically solids..
Not saying that makes the Amsoil bad at all, but don't think that would have happened if it were primarily PAO...
I'm struggling to see the relevence of testing a whole bunch of 5W oils at temperatures that are the realm of (readily available) 0W oils.
Need -40 ? Use a 0W...that's where they are rated at.
The test could just have easily been which oil is closest in colour to blue, which one smelled more synthetic.
Sorry, I don't have the link at the moment but there is a fairly recent YouTube video comparing the ability to pour at about -40 F for 4 different 5w30 oils. Amsoil, M1, Royal Purple & Supertech dino.
It didn't look rigged to me. The M1 started running immediatly, mopping the floor with Amsoil. The presenter had lined up the oils in the expected order of performance (Ams 1st). The RP and ST were basically solids..
Not saying that makes the Amsoil bad at all, but don't think that would have happened if it were primarily PAO...
I'm struggling to see the relevence of testing a whole bunch of 5W oils at temperatures that are the realm of (readily available) 0W oils.
Need -40 ? Use a 0W...that's where they are rated at.
The test could just have easily been which oil is closest in colour to blue, which one smelled more synthetic.
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