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Dropping ACEA Spec #4103254 05/22/16 12:36 AM
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davison0976 Offline OP
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Every time I am at Walmart I go to the oil section and check back labels of top shelf oils, in 5w30 grade, to see what specs they meet. Don't ask, it may be a disease. But anyway, what I had noticed over the last 2 years is that manufacturers have been dropping ACEA spec.

First Mobil1 dropped ACEA A5/B5, even when their website still listed it. Then, more recently, Castrol Edge dropped ACEA A5/B5 leaving only ACEA A1/B1. Now Mobil1 doesn't even list A1/B1. The only oil at Walmart that still meets both, and it's stated on the back of the label is Pennzoil Platinum.

According to my research A1/B1 requires same performance as A5/B5, except that A5/B5 is "stay in grade" oil. That's probably why no 5w20 ever had A5/B5.

Why do you think this is happening? Is it because the 5w30 oils are not as good as they used to be a short while ago? Or is it because manufactures don't want to bother with getting that certification for the oils sold in US market? Or, perhaps, there are other specs, like dexos1 and HTO-06 that surpass that of ACEA A5/B5?

Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: davison0976] #4103263 05/22/16 01:07 AM
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Garak Offline
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At least for the Castrol, they explained that there was a change to testing parameters to the B5 part of things, and it will return. As for A5/B5 with a 5w-20 or 0w-20, it's not about stay in grade, but minimum HTHS. Red Line might be able to do it, but the average ILSAC 20 grade will never do it.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: davison0976] #4103273 05/22/16 01:35 AM
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Marco620 Offline
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Garak is right. Only redline will still do those specs


15' Civic 1.8 i-vtec 311,000 mi M1 0w30 & LG Biotech, BP CVT Fluid,GUMOUT W/ PEA
Doberman Whisperer!
E pluribus unum.

Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: davison0976] #4103279 05/22/16 02:04 AM
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zeng Offline
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Savings in production cost ? ....
in additive package and/or licensing expense ?

Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: davison0976] #4103300 05/22/16 04:19 AM
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yvon_la Offline
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Itemization. Mobil has the delvac le 5w-30 so I suspect they would steer you to the oil you need . It all about money , this is why Mobil went to the trouble of making sure some of their oil pass most popular oil spec ,but it cost more . The less they chaRge the less test that oil passed.

Last edited by yvon_la; 05/22/16 04:20 AM.

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Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: yvon_la] #4103491 05/22/16 09:32 AM
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Rand Offline
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not true.


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Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: Garak] #4103625 05/22/16 12:57 PM
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davison0976 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Garak
At least for the Castrol, they explained that there was a change to testing parameters to the B5 part of things, and it will return. As for A5/B5 with a 5w-20 or 0w-20, it's not about stay in grade, but minimum HTHS. Red Line might be able to do it, but the average ILSAC 20 grade will never do it.


I wasn't sure, but you are right. Looks like A1/B1 allows xW20 oils to have HTHS between 2.6 and 3.5, while A5/B5 requires 2.9 to 3.5.

Also, according to this tool from Lubrizol, having A1/B1 and dexos1 at the same time is better than A5/B5 alone, except I am not sure if dexos1 has a stay-in-grade requirement like A5/B5 does.
http://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdditives/ACEA/RelativePerformanceTool/default.html




Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: davison0976] #4103635 05/22/16 01:08 PM
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chrisri Offline
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My guess is that their oils can't meet ACEA 12 Sequence for energy conserving lubricants. This part of the market in NA is covered with ILSAC/API oils IMO, and there's no real OEMs or market (outside of Bitog universe) demand for such products. Only ACEA spec that is relevant for Americans is good old A3/B4 and Cx for diesels. Can't hold against oil producers not offering product that has no market demand.


02 Nissan Terrano 2.7.TDi Total 5w40
06 FIAT Stilo MW 1.9 Multijet SHU 5w40
07 Opel Vectra SW 1.9 CDTI 150 Motul 5w40
Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: davison0976] #4104040 05/23/16 03:06 AM
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Garak Offline
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Originally Posted By: davison0976
I wasn't sure, but you are right. Looks like A1/B1 allows xW20 oils to have HTHS between 2.6 and 3.5, while A5/B5 requires 2.9 to 3.5.

Yes, that little HTHS thing got me before, too, when I was wondering why we weren't seeing 5w-20 and 0w-20 A5/B5. In any case, I'm not sure how accurate that Lubrizol thing is in all its comparisons, but I've always kind of suspected A5/B5 and dexos1 weren't that far apart, to the point of wondering why GM wouldn't just request that, which is a whole other argument about people being unable to read labels anyhow unless there's a giant logo pointing the way.

chrisi: You're probably right. Unless we start seeing more manuals in North America calling for A5/B5, there's not a lot of point in a company scrambling to make sure it's on the bottle.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: davison0976] #4104245 05/23/16 09:24 AM
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BigD1 Offline
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Valvoline full synthetic with MaxLife technology product data sheet says that 5W-30 is ACEA A5/B5 for gasoline engines only. The product data sheet effective date is 4-13-2016.

http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/valvoline_full_synthetic_with_maxlife_technology.pdf


1992 Toyota Pickup--AmazonBasics Conventional--10W-30--Toyota 90915YZZD1
Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: BigD1] #4104255 05/23/16 09:37 AM
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Garak Offline
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See, that's what I mention about some companies being a little silly when it comes to ACEA specifications. You are A5/B5 or you are not. You can't chop off the B5 part, either by deleting the letters or saying you're not to use this in a diesel engine calling for A5/B5.

Castrol had a problem with the B5 portion, and yanked the spec altogether, if only temporarily. At least Valvoline addresses the situation, but that's not within the ACEA rules. I'm sure M1 and Castrol Edge products are all A5/B5 for gasoline engines only, too. They just don't play that game.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: Garak] #4104426 05/23/16 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: Garak
See, that's what I mention about some companies being a little silly when it comes to ACEA specifications. You are A5/B5 or you are not. You can't chop off the B5 part, either by deleting the letters or saying you're not to use this in a diesel engine calling for A5/B5.

Castrol had a problem with the B5 portion, and yanked the spec altogether, if only temporarily. At least Valvoline addresses the situation, but that's not within the ACEA rules. I'm sure M1 and Castrol Edge products are all A5/B5 for gasoline engines only, too. They just don't play that game.


+1


19 VW Passat Wolfsburg TSI (VW Genuine 0W-20+OEM)
13 Hyundai Santa Fe Sport 2.0T (Shell RGT 5W-30+OEM)
Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: Garak] #4104439 05/23/16 01:19 PM
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CharlieBauer Offline
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Originally Posted By: Garak
I've always kind of suspected A5/B5 and dexos1 weren't that far apart, to the point of wondering why GM wouldn't just request that


dexos also includes xw20 oils.

As to why there is an accuracy issue with Euro specs on NA oils, don't forget it's the product marketing folks who are responsible for what goes on the bottles, on websites, on data sheets etc etc. And when something doesn't matter as much, accuracy suffers.


It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that ain't so.

- mistakenly attributed to Mark Twain
Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: Garak] #4104853 05/23/16 11:12 PM
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BobFout Offline
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Originally Posted By: Garak
See, that's what I mention about some companies being a little silly when it comes to ACEA specifications. You are A5/B5 or you are not. You can't chop off the B5 part, either by deleting the letters or saying you're not to use this in a diesel engine calling for A5/B5.

Castrol had a problem with the B5 portion, and yanked the spec altogether, if only temporarily. At least Valvoline addresses the situation, but that's not within the ACEA rules. I'm sure M1 and Castrol Edge products are all A5/B5 for gasoline engines only, too. They just don't play that game.


This looks to be similar to how in the US, 229.51/LL04 oils are for "diesel only".


2003 VW Jetta TDI (Sold) / 2015 VW GTI 2.0T
Re: Dropping ACEA Spec [Re: CharlieBauer] #4105026 05/24/16 07:31 AM
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Garak Offline
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Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
xos also includes xw20 oils.

That's true, but the very first time this debate was had in earnest, the only dexos1 oils were 5w-30 varieties.

Originally Posted By: BobFout
This looks to be similar to how in the US, 229.51/LL04 oils are for "diesel only".

Yes, it is, except the BMW and Mercedes are putting limitations on their own specifications for certain regions, basically based upon an application, gassers in non-ULSG markets, rather than certain oil companies redefining specs to suit their own purposes, that is to gloss over limitations in their own product, or, at the very least, limitations in their marketing department, as per CharlieBauer's suggestion.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
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