Kawasaki FX651v 22hp oil recommendation change

[NH73]

Originally Posted By: 4certain
Thanks for all the info. I think after all the replies I'm going with the Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10w40 motor cycle oil. It seems to be a close enough fit to stay within the manufacturers recommmendation and also handle an air cooled engine. I am going to use the mower for my small mowing business so it will be punished with all day use a few times a week. I'm going to also change it every 50 hours because of that.



Good pick. It is defiantly one within manufacturers recommendation. I don't think you would have no problems doing the manufacturers 100 hour OCI recommendation. Since being they make there recommendations starting with conventional oils and you be using one that is better.

 

[TLAR640]

I'm using Mobil1 10w40 High Mileage in my John Deere ZTrak with a Kawasaki FH601V. It's a little thicker than Racing 4T 10w40. It seems quieter now. I used Mobil1 10w30 for the previous 10 years and 800 hours without issue. Trying to talk myself into using 15w50...

 

[racer12306]

I broke in my FS691 with SuperTech 30 for 10hrs. Changed it at 5hrs, at 10 and then at 20 I put Amsoil Small Engine 30 in it. Now at almost 50 hrs, it's yet to use a bit of oil.

I plan to change at 100 unit hrs (80 oil hours) and then every 100 unit hrs after that.


In the end, keep oil in it and it will live a long life.

 

[NH73]

Originally Posted By: TLAR640
I'm using Mobil1 10w40 High Mileage in my John Deere ZTrak with a Kawasaki FH601V. It's a little thicker than Racing 4T 10w40. It seems quieter now. I used Mobil1 10w30 for the previous 10 years and 800 hours without issue. Trying to talk myself into using 15w50...


15w50 would be a good pick for Alabama. Kawasaki now has 20w50 part of there recommendation.

 

[coder]

4certain: I am reading elsewhere on this forum that purpose built
motorcycle oils often have some friction modifier to make them work better with wet clutches
(the gist of it as I gathered was that these friction modifiers make the oil less slippery)
This may not matter all that much, and I have no clear understanding of the net effect,
but it is enough uncertainty for me to shy away from motorcycle oils for my zt mower.

There are a large number of excellent automotive oils to chose from, and the BITOG consensus
seems to go more in that direction for the small air cooled OPE engines. Not sure why, I just do not see
people endorsing motorcycle oils for this application. Don't get me wrong, it could very well be an excellent
option.

I am about to do my first oil change after break in (a bit over 5 hours)
on my Kawi fr691, I am using Redline 15w50. The main reasons: the well-regarded additive package, and
the high quality, thermally stabile (known) base stock. Redline is pretty good about going on record about what is
in their products. I really hate it when oil blenders are secretive about their formula, esp when they do not
tell us what base stock they use. Besides, I posted here about it, and nobody told me it was a horrible idea.

I will be checking before (w the break-in oil) and after (w redline) operating temperature, engine noise.
and oil consumption. The last one is utterly subjective, and probably useless,
I will probably hear what I expect to hear.

One of Redline's claims is reduced engine operating temperatures, so I want to see if there is
something to that. I am more concerned with using a synthetic media, high filtration rate oil filter
and high filtration rate cylindrical air filter. From what I read here, many high quality engine oils
would work. My application is residential, so I am planning to do yearly oil changes at the end of the season.
Will work out to about 60-100 hours.

 

[coder]

I admit my obsession about figuring out my mower's optimal maintenance schedule is probably
driven by my anxiety over spending way to much money on it.
Realistically, it is not that big of a deal. My name is... and I am an OPE maintenance addict...
There, I said it...

 

[edhackett]

This is the current recommendation from Kawasaki. The manual for the FX651V-FX730V can be downloaded from this page:

FX691V | Kawasaki - Lawn Mower Engines - Small Engines

Overhead v-valve90° V-twinPressurized lubrication system

www.kawasakienginesusa.com

Ed

 

[coder]

Does this mean that air cooled engines run hotter when the ambient temperature is higher?
The air cooling just delivers some cfm of air, (depending on the RPM) and beyond that we
are just hoping that the engine does not get too hot?

 

[Ride_Red]

Does this mean that air cooled engines run hotter when the ambient temperature is higher?
The air cooling just delivers some cfm of air, (depending on the RPM) and beyond that we
are just hoping that the engine does not get too hot?

Air-cooled engines run hotter when the ambient temperature is hotter. Yes, it will run hotter in the summer than in the winter.

I'm sure your choice of Redline oil will do just fine in your engine. People run 10W-30 in their mowers all the time (my father-in-law's zero turn included). 15W-50 is within the oils specified in the user manual, so it should be just fine also. I wouldn't run 15W-50 in a snow blower in the winter, but in a mower in the summer it should work great.

 

[loneryder]

I'm new on here so.. I just bought a Hustler Xonei with a Kawasaki FX651v 22hp engine in it. When talking to my dealer he said that Kawasaki or Hustler is now recommending 20w50 now instead of the regular 10w30 or sae30 recommended previously. He said that by changing to 20w50 the oil consumption issue would be resolved. I have a Hustler Raptor with a FR691v in it and have noticed it does actually consume a little oil. It doesn't smoke or anything but it seems to blow alot of smoke when I start it after sitting awile. I have used Mobil 1 full synthetic 10w30 from the original oil change in my Raptor. Anyway, The question is do I break in my mower with 20w50 Mobil 1 motor cycle oil or 10w30 Full Synthetic?

20-50 goes in the Hydrogear transmissions. That guy must have misspoke.

 

[passgas55]

I was using a 10/30 M1HM in a Kaw 24hp . I did find it used some oil. I switched over to Delo 15/40 and it did stop on usage.

 

[coder]

20-50 goes in the Hydrogear transmissions. That guy must have misspoke.

The current Kawi Owner's Manual for the FR691v Recommends 10W40, but proceeds to say "Using 20W50 in higher temperatures may reduce oil consumption". On the chart, 20W50 is now one of the approved SAE grades if the ambient temp is over 0 celsius.
So it is clearly "permitted" now. page 14.

Out of the SF..SL API labels listed, SL is the "highest" or "newest" but it is a 20 year old, rather minimalist service
class from 2001. Many of the oils that meet SL tend to be high HTHS (over 3.5), and most synthetic and non-synthetic
products meet SL.
Newer fuel economy and cat converter related improvements reflected in the more "modern" standards appear
to be not required.

My objective for making maintenance decisions is: minimize wear, lower engine operating
temperature, and stretch the expected service life of this relatively "throw-away" engine.

So: high anti wear additive levels, high film strength, stability under the high temperature
operating conditions. I want to change oil no more than once per season.
This for me spells a high quality heavier SAE grade, low noack, hi-temp stabile synthetic oil,
combined with the best efficiency oil filtration, and best air filtration possible.
I am hoping to get 2000 hours out of the Kawi FR691.

 

[SHOZ]

I've had a JG F510 with Kawasaki motor and hydraulic drive. They kind of share the oil but not completely. It takes two oil changes to get all the oil changed.

But I've used 0w40 for the last 15 years in it. It runs great and doesn't need any oil . I change half the oil every 50 hrs or about once a year.

It came from the factory with 5w30 and it ran hot. Over 300F after a two hour mow in 90F. I added a oil filter bypass mount and a AT cooler. This keeps the temps below 230F quite well with the 0w40.

It cranks slow when cold though.

 

[varmint]

Kawasaki engine oils and recommended temperatures.

 

[coder]

Hi Varmint, I think some of us have this chart memorized already, given the number of times it has been
posted in this, and other threads. Well, technically, this last incarnation incorporated the 15w50


I see you are using the 15w50 M1 in your Kawi. Great choice, IMO. BTW there is a $15 off rebate
going on right now. The M1 can apparently be used both in the Hydros, and in the Engine,
so kudos for simplifying maintenance.

One of the advantages of using ...50 oils is the super low NOACK volatility.
I recall the M1 is around an incredible 5%. The Redline I am using is at 6% and that was one of the
reasons I picked it. I am checking my engine temp with an infrared thermometer after 1 hour of mowing,
and it looks like, it runs 15-20 degrees Celsius cooler (avg.) running compared to the factory fill,
whatever that was.

I think the low volatility is a contributor to the decreased
oil consumption claimed. I may switch to the M1 next time I change the oil as well.
Less than half the price, and probably just as good.

 

[varmint]

Hi Coder, I've use mobil 1 15W50 in the engine and the Hydrogear drive. When I purchased the mower I used Rotella 5W40 in the engine. It always used about 1 oz. oil per hour of mowing. When I say mowing I'm talking cutting 3 to 5 inches of pasture grass not 1 inch of lawn grass. This machine lives a hard life. I mower 6 to 7 hours week lawn, pasture, and woods trails. After changing to M1 15W50 it might use 3 or 4 ozs. in a 100 hr. oil change. I learned about M1 15W50 from a BITOGer call Cujet, when the told us of his problems with his Honda water pumps. I think he was
using a 5W30 oil and lost several engines in the Florida heat. He uses M1 TDT 5W40 in his mower. Redline is an outstanding oil just a little to rich
for my blood.

 

[coder]

Varmint: I got the Redline off of Amazon, it was about 2x what the M1 at Wallymart for the 5quart jug.
(I think your "too rich" reference to it being expensive, right?)

I was curious about the high Group 5 (Ester) content, and the good anti-wear additive package, and the claims that it measurably
reduced operating temp for some people in hard-working sportscars, as evidenced by their oil temp meters.

From the looks of it, redline 15w50 may not be a bad option for the Hydros either, but there are so many unknowns about that application
that I feel more comfortable using something that we know at least one large Zt mower maker uses (Gravely's rebadged
"high end synthetic" hydro fluid is the M1). I tried my best to figure out the "best" Hydro oil from first principles, but it is easy
to miss something and settled for a known quantity, something "safe".

It is likely I am going to switch to M1 15w50 in the Kawi next oil change or after as well.
The M1 has about 1300 ppm zddp in it, afaik it is their reformulated gtl+pao base stock formula now.

M1 has a significant amount of in-house expertise in formulating lubricants, they have various "recipes" they make available to other
blenders. They are a wholesaler of base stock, and additive packages.
A boutique oil maker could just buy base stock and additive package from M1, along with a formula, tweak it a bit
(using the M1 guidelines) then thump their chest about their "superior" boutique oil and market the hell out of it.

From what I gather, the "extended performance" version of this is no longer available, but
from what the M1 people told me, it seems like the currently sold formulation is the same what used to be the "extended".
This is what they said:
"Unfortunately, the 15W-50 has not been available in the Extended Performance line for over 5 years at least but is still available in the standard containers we see now. They will be the same product, with a different marketing label on the outside."

I am a fan of M1 products, that is what I use in all of our family's passenger vehicles nowdays.
The 0w40 euro in a Hyundai Sonata 1.6L turbo, and 5w30 in our Honda Ody, and 2.4L Sonata.
They sell it in bulk plastic bag packaging at w-mart, even less expensive than the 5 quart bottle.
I had also used the Belgian manufacture Castrol Euro 0w40, which now replaced the legendary "german" Castrol.

 

[varmint]

Coder:I buy my M1 15W50 from Wallyworld when Mobil runs there rebate program. 2 5 Qt. jugs is enough
for a year and price after rebate is about $13. per jug. I do 100 hr engine oil and 200 hr filter changes.
Hydrogear is 250 hrs. oil and filter. My ZTR is the only piece of equipment that gets 15W50. You
haven't said where your at, but if your summers are 80F+, 15W50 will serve you well. Redline is $47.
a gallon on Amazon. M1 15W50 = $2.60 qt. Redline = $11.75 qt. Yes to rich for my blood.

 

[coder]

Yes. Redline is a bit pricey, I agree.

Filtering , esp filter selection and filter change schedule has been passionately debated elsewhere
on BITOG. I am not sure about changing the filter more frequently than the oil.
Don't you lose some oil wen you take off the filter?

My thinking on filters: I believe that as long as the filter has good flow rate and sufficiently
low delta pressure for preventing the bypass opening "a lot" under normal conditions, the filtering efficiency is as good
or better than when it is it is new. I do not view filtering efficiency as something that gets "gradually worse"
over time. Why would it?
Imagine the filter is like grid, with various size holes where dirt can get through.
As the filter captures dirt, the big holes get plugged by captured dirt first.
So smaller holes remain. If enough holes still remain, the filter maintains low delta pressure, and good flow rate.
(And for a synthetic filter media, there are a lot more small holes to begin with)
But the average hole size now went down because the big holes are plugged with captured dirt particles)
So this is why I consider that the filtering efficiency actually improves as the filter is getting clogged.
The key point: "as long as the flow rate is still good"

There is a point where the delta pressure increases so that it is hiogher than the bypass pressure.
At that point the filter is done and must be replaced. But the key insight for me is that this is an "all or nothing proposition".
The filter is either "before" reaching bypass delta pressure or "after". As long as it is "before" it continues to filter fine.

It is true, the back pressure is increasing as it is getting clogged, but as long as it does not exceed the bypass pressure,
we are good. I think the trick is to use a filter that can hold a substantial amount of dirt and starts out with an excellent
flow rate and efficiency to begin with. Then it can be safely used up to its rated life expectancy, which can be substantial
for a synthetic media filter often rated for 20K miles.

The high quality filter's makers publish the dirt holding capacity in grams, and/or or the expected life in miles. This can be easily converted to an "expected life" in hours. A 20K mile rated filter (e.g. M1) can go for more than a 1000 hours on a tractor, with a substantial conservative margin. I figure 20K miles divided by the average speed of 10 miles per hour for easy calculation, would estimate the filter capable of lasting in excess of 2000 hours. Conservatively, take only half of that. so you maintain a
substantial safety margin. (Mind you , this is for a super efficient, super long life filter, not a cheap cellulose/paper OEM filter)
The expected life expectancy can be calculated even more accurately by actually measuring the actual
amount of dirt captured by the filter.

Something like this:
1) Fill a new filter with fresh oil
2) Turn it upside down and let the oil drip out for an hour
3) Measure the weight in grams
3) Put the filter on the engine, and run for 100 hours
4) Remove filter
5) Turn upside down and let the oil drip out for an hour
6) Measure the weight in grams
The difference is the amount of dirt the filter captured in 100 hours.

This gives a basis to calculate ho much dirt is accumulating in your filter per some chosen
amount of time (say in 100 hours), in a way that is specific to your circumstances.
As I mentioned, A top notch filter will have the dirt holding capacity in grams, now you have an accurate
basis to figure how long you can use that filter on that engine.

So it does not make any sense to me to swap the filter before swapping out the oil. To my simple mind, the opposite makes
more sense. Multiple oil changes, while keeping the same (high quality) filter.
Doing 2-3 oil changes per filter change still has a huge safety margin, and I am convinced it is safe.
Saving some money by using the filter longer allows you to buy the "best of the best" synthetic media filter, and still
come out ahead money wise. In addition, the "best of breed" filter has far better efficiency than the budget or
typical OEM filter. And that is worth having, makes an actual difference for engine longevity.

As long as you replace the filter before it gets to "clogged" which can be figured in hours (I and leaving a comfortable margin)
I do not think there is anything to be gained from replacing the filter earlier or more frequently. (of course I am talking about a top notch filter) .

Of course, having a backpressure gauge would be better. Then we could replace the filter based on measured delta pressure, instead
of guessing the rate of clogging. I am actually doing my air filter changes this way, I have a filter minder on the airbox.
Maybe somebody makes an oil filter minder?

So to summarize: there are only 3 things that matter for an oil filter: 1) Delta pressure. 2) Filtering efficiency 3) Bypass pressure
As long as the Delta pressure remains < Bypass pressure, the filter will be as efficient, or a little better than when it was new.
and the efficiency only depends on the type of filter media, and the design.
If (2) sucks to begin with, changing the filter more often will not help that at all.

 

[coder]

Oh..sorry Varmint , I misread your post. It turns out we are in agreement on the topic. I am doing the same thing you do.
I could probably go even longer on the filter. I am using the Fram UG synthetic, which is 20K miles rated.