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EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota #4092994 05/10/16 08:27 AM
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wemay Offline OP
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http://www.autoblog.com/2016/05/10/minnesota-ev-pollute-less-than-gas/



Quote (small excerpt)
"...The 61-percent figure is reached under the worst of conditions, given the "higher carbon intensity" of gas refined in Minnesota compared to the rest of the US. Factor in the growing offerings of power from renewable resources such as water and wind, and that greenhouse-gas reduction climbs to as much as 95 percent. Within an average car's lifetime mileage of about 160,000 miles, an EV emits at least 46 fewer tons of greenhouse gases than conventional vehicles. To quote Deep Purple, that's a lot of Smoke on the Water in the Land of 10,000 Lakes..."


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Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: wemay] #4092996 05/10/16 08:38 AM
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Danh Offline
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No argument with the notion EVs are cleaner than traditional autos. But note the "75% oil sands" reference, effectively comparing EVs in this analysis to the dirtiest possible way to extract crude oil.

Last edited by Danh; 05/10/16 08:39 AM.
Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: wemay] #4093051 05/10/16 09:57 AM
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Another study that came out recently said that TOTAL emissions from electrics / hybrids are generally no less than their gasoline counterparts. Since they're on average heavier than their gas counterparts, they put out as much additional brake dust and tire particles as the reduction in exhaust emissions.


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Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: kam327] #4093083 05/10/16 10:30 AM
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IndyIan Offline
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Originally Posted By: kam327
Another study that came out recently said that TOTAL emissions from electrics / hybrids are generally no less than their gasoline counterparts. Since they're on average heavier than their gas counterparts, they put out as much additional brake dust and tire particles as the reduction in exhaust emissions.

Doesn't sound too probable given all hybrids and electrics use regenerative braking... Also the electric/hybrid cars seem to be about the same weight as the gas competition. The Tesla S is 4400-4600lbs just like every other luxo-barge.
I think the future will be home solar generation and storage for electric cars anyways. Giant grids and power stations seem expensive as small scale generation gets cheaper.


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Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: kam327] #4093094 05/10/16 10:34 AM
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Duplicate post

Last edited by HTSS_TR; 05/10/16 10:38 AM.

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Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: HTSS_TR] #4093096 05/10/16 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted By: kam327
Another study that came out recently said that TOTAL emissions from electrics / hybrids are generally no less than their gasoline counterparts. Since they're on average heavier than their gas counterparts, they put out as much additional brake dust and tire particles as the reduction in exhaust emissions.

This study is probably sponsored by oil industry to discredit zero emission vehicles.

Brake dust and tire particles of any vehicle type (ZEV(Zero Emission Vehicle) or PIH(Plug In Hybrid) or ICE) are very little compares with pollution from exhaust of ICE.

I never saw any emission study mentions Brake dust and tire particles.

This study didn't include the electric generated by coal and oil and natural gas.


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Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: IndyIan] #4093116 05/10/16 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: kam327
Another study that came out recently said that TOTAL emissions from electrics / hybrids are generally no less than their gasoline counterparts. Since they're on average heavier than their gas counterparts, they put out as much additional brake dust and tire particles as the reduction in exhaust emissions.

Doesn't sound too probable given all hybrids and electrics use regenerative braking... Also the electric/hybrid cars seem to be about the same weight as the gas competition. The Tesla S is 4400-4600lbs just like every other luxo-barge.
I think the future will be home solar generation and storage for electric cars anyways. Giant grids and power stations seem expensive as small scale generation gets cheaper.
Regenerative braking doesn't work worth a bleep in stop and go traffic. Works good on a mile long freight train, though.

Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: wemay] #4093140 05/10/16 11:26 AM
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One should note for the purposes of this analysis, it is assumed that the bulk of the crude oil used is tar sands oil - the refineries in the Twin Cities are long time refiners of Heavy Sour Crude from Canada.

Historically, the majority of US refiners were not equipped to refine this product, and thus our refiners enjoyed lower cost supplies. As oil prices skyrocketed, many more refiners upgraded their capabilities to handle this product.

Nationally, these statistics would look different as the US refining mix is much different than the local refining picture.

Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: kam327] #4093154 05/10/16 11:44 AM
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raytseng Offline
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Originally Posted By: kam327
Another study that came out recently said that TOTAL emissions from electrics / hybrids are generally no less than their gasoline counterparts. Since they're on average heavier than their gas counterparts, they put out as much additional brake dust and tire particles as the reduction in exhaust emissions.


Well such is the result of open publishing. And the topic of are EVs just as dirty as gasoline cars is the topic with a thousand studies, so you can find a lot of ones with results to match your preconceived notions, or to be interesting tidbits to maek you feel smarter.

Last week tonight just covered this exact topic of Science Studies last Sunday. Science is not 100% one way and 0% the other way and it gets messy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rnq1NpHdmw

The result is there will always be Studies, and then a result will be people who say but what about study X which finds the opposite you're just picking and choosing.

Eventually science will come closer to Truth, but it may clouded, and spun by special interests; PR and the rest of it. Just be aware that this happens

Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: wemay] #4093385 05/10/16 05:09 PM
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Do they include the mining and manufacture of the battery banks in this or just the vehicle itself? I don't see it mentioned in the article shrug So my guess is no.... Nor do they factor in the periodic replacement of that battery bank.


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Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: OVERKILL] #4093391 05/10/16 05:19 PM
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What about engine oil? Gearbox/transmission oil? Coolant? Production, refining, transportation of all of those? Is that accounted for on the gasser side? How about oil leaks from engines? I thought there was a stat that more oil leaks out annually from passenger vehicles than the Exxon Valdez?


Last edited by surfstar; 05/10/16 05:25 PM.

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Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: wemay] #4093399 05/10/16 05:34 PM
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wemay Offline OP
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Time is key here. The fact that EV, now in its mass appeal infancy, can already be compared to the ICE in terms of overall costs, puts a feather in that technologies hat. Time marches on.


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Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: surfstar] #4093400 05/10/16 05:37 PM
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OVERKILL Offline
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Originally Posted By: surfstar
What about engine oil? Gearbox/transmission oil? Coolant? Production, refining, transportation of all of those? Is that accounted for on the gasser side? How about oil leaks from engines? I thought there was a stat that more oil leaks out annually from passenger vehicles than the Exxon Valdez?



Gearbox oil likely applies to the EV's as well. But good point about the other leaks. And then we have the bunker fuel burned trucking the batteries or their components over from China. The Maersk consumes, at minimum, 1,660 gal/hour of bunker fuel, which has 2,000 times the sulphur content of automotive fuel. Of course this applies to other things that come from China too.

There is so much pollution.....


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Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: OVERKILL] #4093781 05/11/16 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Do they include the mining and manufacture of the battery banks in this or just the vehicle itself? I don't see it mentioned in the article shrug So my guess is no.... Nor do they factor in the periodic replacement of that battery bank.

The chart clearly accounts for vehicle and battery manufacturing.

Hint: it's the blue part. wink

Re: EVs are 61% cleaner than gas in Minnesota [Re: wemay] #4093864 05/11/16 08:54 AM
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Richard Feynman once said,
Quote:
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.


As is usual in politicized science, journalists use slanted stats to advance their agendas.

Last edited by MolaKule; 05/11/16 08:57 AM.

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