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747-400 versus 747-8 #4086762 05/03/16 07:22 PM
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mjoekingz28 Offline OP
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Hello. It seems, in my mind, the 747 was made and made correct. It has more or less stayed true to its original design, and for good reason.

I think Boeing sat on their hands as ideas surfaced and the technology of materials improved and got to get their hands dirty once again with the 8.



So, I ask this. Is the 747-400 the tried and true design that is timeless and can probably not be made any better. Better being subjective, but I say this. Best is a balance of all things considered and if they could improve fuel mileage, or whatever, then the engine would be more complex or make less power.


With the balance of compromises being stated:

Is the 747-8 an improvement? Maybe it flies a little faster or a little smoother, less stress on components- leading to longer service or easier landings (or more forgiving).

OR

oR

Or

Do you think they are keeping up with the Joneses by making it flashier and put up better numbers on paper?

Maybe it is built in a different factory than the 400 or uses differing metal alloys ?

I don't know, just asking.








I am usually nervous and suspicious when something resembling perfect somehow gets better. It seems the beans counters and/or the marketers took over production and found a way to cheat.

But hopefully all is well in Washington with America's sweetheart airplane.

Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: mjoekingz28] #4086766 05/03/16 07:25 PM
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HerrStig Offline
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Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
Hello. It seems, in my mind, the 747 was made and made correct. It has more or less stayed true to its original design, and for good reason.

I think Boeing sat on their hands as ideas surfaced and the technology of materials improved and got to get their hands dirty once again with the 8.



So, I ask this. Is the 747-400 the tried and true design that is timeless and can probably not be made any better. Better being subjective, but I say this. Best is a balance of all things considered and if they could improve fuel mileage, or whatever, then the engine would be more complex or make less power.


With the balance of compromises being stated:

Is the 747-8 an improvement? Maybe it flies a little faster or a little smoother, less stress on components- leading to longer service or easier landings (or more forgiving).

OR

oR

Or

Do you think they are keeping up with the Joneses by making it flashier and put up better numbers on paper?

Maybe it is built in a different factory than the 400 or uses differing metal alloys ?

I don't know, just asking.








I am usually nervous and suspicious when something resembling perfect somehow gets better. It seems the beans counters and/or the marketers took over production and found a way to cheat.

But hopefully all is well in Washington with America's sweetheart airplane.
Airlines have their choice of engines.

Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: mjoekingz28] #4086786 05/03/16 07:42 PM
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Mr Nice Offline
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It had a great run but the days of 747 manufacturing is nearing the end. Very little interest in the 747-8 to keep the line open.

Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: mjoekingz28] #4086792 05/03/16 07:44 PM
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Astro14 Offline
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The 747-400 wing was a slight modification of the original wing, that was designed in months and rushed into production. The 747-8 wing was designed with supercomputers and computational fluid dynamics. Much more aerodynamic efficiency. They fixed a few fuselage flow issues left over from the original design as well. 747 is a sweet jet to fly...I've heard the -8 just improves on that.

For a great read on the original airplane, I recommend Joe Sutter's book. After they lost the competition to Lockheed (who offered the C5 Galacy), Boeing reckoned if they could sell 50, they would make back their investment in their design bid for the USAF Large Cargo Aircraft.

1,500 747s later, Joe Sutter's team had changed aviation forever.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003GYEGZM/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1


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Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: mjoekingz28] #4086808 05/03/16 07:54 PM
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mjoekingz28 Offline OP
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Yeah, Mr. Nice. I dont keep up with aviation, but it seems the last decade is Airbus this- Airbus that.



Thanks for the referral Astro14!

I wonder what the differences are between aircraft wind tunnels and those for road-going vehicles.



I mean, how can you even test it. It probably has several cubic miles of air acting with it. Like, turbulence........close take off vortices that can ground smaller crafts......climb aerodynamics, descents, and differing kinds of air at differing flight levels, etc







HerrStig, I thought I read Pratt and Whitney. Maybe they are like Chevys- a V6 truck will take a SBC....a SBC truck can fit a Big Block.


It just seemed to me that the entire airplane must be revamped to accept differering engines......Guess not!

Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: mjoekingz28] #4086813 05/03/16 07:55 PM
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Danh Offline
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The 747-8 is considerably more fuel efficient than the 747-400 because of new engines, materials and aerodynamics. Cosmetic changes make the interior more attractive as well. Made in the same factory as all 747s.

Unfortunately, the 747-8 does little the 777 can't do less-expensively (especially the upcoming 777 update) and its days are numbered as a passenger carrier. The 747-8 has attracted little interest except as a cargo carrier. The Airbus 380 has issues of its own: The market for 4 engine jumbo jets is awfully small these days.

Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: mjoekingz28] #4086916 05/03/16 09:20 PM
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I find it odd that the 747 has lasted this long. It had the look and the prestige for a while and a huge company backing it up for parts and service. The out of round fuselage at the front might have set it apart but it's an engineering nightmare. They are lucky it hasn't caused more catastrophic problems. For a long time the trend has been for better fuel economy and that has lead to fewer engines. When bigger engines come on line the 747 will be replaced with a twin engine aircraft of the same size. Two engines is the magic number now. It's kept the 737 in business.

Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: mjoekingz28] #4086928 05/03/16 09:36 PM
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OneEyeJack Offline
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Boeing just got some bad news. It appears that some guy in the White House made a deal with Iran that included a boat load of cash for re-development with the promise of reduced bomb development. The guy in the White House that made the deal knew part of the billions of dollars would go toward purchasing 118 airliners but forgot to require that the money he gave them be use for US airliners. So they purchased Airbus airliners instead. It appears that at all levels of government that stupid can't be fixed.

Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: WobblyElvis] #4086929 05/03/16 09:36 PM
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camrydriver111 Offline
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Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
I find it odd that the 747 has lasted this long.


I don't. When it came out there was nothing like it, and it didn't have any real competition until the Airbuses and 777.


BITOG or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Extended OCI
Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: camrydriver111] #4086942 05/03/16 10:06 PM
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user52165 Offline
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The 777 and 787 will eventually put the 747 types out of business and Boeing knows it. It served its purpose well but 2 engine long haul are the present and future. The A380 has its place but orders will not keep up. Fuel prices will not maintain a long term low cost.

Last edited by user52165; 05/03/16 10:09 PM.
Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: mjoekingz28] #4086994 05/04/16 12:41 AM
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mjoekingz28 Offline OP
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OneEyeJack,


What do you think the next person in the White House will fly in if the 747s go away?





user52165,

I sure hope not. I feel the 747 is to overseas travel and bulky air cargo what the Cessnas(152/172) are to the first steps of being a pilot.


Although I havent a clue what the military starts the fresh pilots in. (Simulators then into the jumpseat of their rated aircraft?)

Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: mjoekingz28] #4087032 05/04/16 04:37 AM
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NH73 Offline
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Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28
OneEyeJack,


What do you think the next person in the White House will fly in if the 747s go away?





user52165,

I sure hope not. I feel the 747 is to overseas travel and bulky air cargo what the Cessnas(152/172) are to the first steps of being a pilot.


Although I havent a clue what the military starts the fresh pilots in. (Simulators then into the jumpseat of their rated aircraft?)
They already made there pick. It will be one of the lasts 747-8.

Last edited by NH73; 05/04/16 04:38 AM.

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Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: mjoekingz28] #4087060 05/04/16 05:33 AM
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NH73 Offline
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Its pretty evident why Boeing doesn't give more major R&D to the 747. As stated above, the 777 is hurting there sales, but as Boeing says, they as well just cannibalize there own sales, because someone else would take it away if we don't. The reason for the -8 was to updated and try to compete with the Airbus A380, but it falls too short in seat numbers. Airbus is having a hard time selling the A-380 so it is. Imagine how bad it would have been if Boeing came up with a competing product? Basically, -8 has the same engines as the 787 and are even more efficient and advance than the A380's engines. This has put Airbus A380's only large customer begging for a more efficient engine on the A380, putting Airbus between a rock and a hard place to spend money on just one cutomer, because Emirate is Airbus only customer that bought into there concept and no other airline appears to even be willing to buy into it. The best at this point is that they will only sell a few to other airlines.


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Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: mjoekingz28] #4087125 05/04/16 06:58 AM
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Mr Nice Offline
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Are you sure Iran chose Airbus over Boeing ?
I don't think our Government could force them to buy Boeing aircraft.... which would be good for the orders / workers.

Off Topic:
Boeing is cutting 8000 jobs due to Airbus winning more orders than had Boeing expected.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0WW0AF



Re: 747-400 versus 747-8 [Re: mjoekingz28] #4087172 05/04/16 07:52 AM
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Astro14 Offline
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Originally Posted By: mjoekingz28

Although I havent a clue what the military starts the fresh pilots in. (Simulators then into the jumpseat of their rated aircraft?)


Military training varies by service, and has changed since I went through, but let me give you my example as representative of the process.

Primary flight phase: T-34C aircraft: 450HP Turboprop (since replaced by T-6 Texan with 1600HP and ejection seat). Ground school. Systems tests. Procedure trainers/instrument only simulator - 25 Hours. Basic flying, formation flying, instrument flying, acrobatics. 70 hours. Solo'd at 20 hours in the T-34*

Intermediate Strike Phase: T-2C aircraft (twin engine jet). Ground school. Systems tests. Flight simulators - 50 hours. Basic flying, Instrument flying, formation flying, acrobatics, including out of control flight, air to air gunnery, carrier landing (solo)**. 80 hours.

Advanced Strike Phase: A-4 aircraft (single engine fast jet). Ground school. Systems test. Flight simulators - 70 hours. Basic flying, instrument flying including acrobatics while on instruments only***, instrument certification/rating, formation flying, air to ground weapon delivery (rockets, bombs, guns), air to air combat maneuvering, carrier qualification (solo). 120 hours.

Then on to a year of F-14 specific training, starting with ground school and simulators...

* Let me stop there and point out that with 20 hours of flying in my life, I was flying a 450HP, retractable gear, acrobatic, turbine airplane by myself. No civilian would ever come close to that pace.

** Let me point out that I had about 150 hours of total flight time, and I was landing a twin-engine, ejection seat, jet aircraft aboard a carrier at sea by myself. Again, no other training in the world would have a pilot with that amount of time doing that much.

*** This still amazes me. We had to fly graded acrobatic maneuvers while under an instrument hood in the back of the A-4. We were graded on the precision with which we flew the maneuvers, and had to begin/end each one on a precise heading, airspeed and altitude. For example, the "Squirrel Cage" was one maneuver: beginning at 450 KTS, 10,000 feet, on a cardinal heading, perform a loop, then an Immelman turn, then a Split-S, followed by a Half Cuban Eight, each one ending at that 450/10,000/heading and each one graded for precision in G, attitude and airspeed control while on instruments only.

Last edited by Astro14; 05/04/16 08:00 AM.

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