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SM/CF and other dual ratings #4047424 03/24/16 01:28 AM
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mjoekingz28 Offline OP
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We hear alot on here about the uses of HDEOs such as Rotella in gas cars, trucks and motorcycles.....but what about PCMO oils in diesel engines. I have some SM oil that has the CF rating, but the newer SN version of the same oil is not rated 'C', but instead has a ACEA rating.


So do any of you put 'gas oil in your diesel?'

Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: mjoekingz28] #4047428 03/24/16 02:02 AM
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Joe90_guy Offline
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API CF is obsolete now which is probably why it's absent from the newer oil. However CF, even when it was active, was utterly meaningless in the context of modern diesel engines and the Cat 1MPC engine test that it was based on, a ridiculous waste of space.
If you have an oil that carries an ACEA B3 or B4 rating, it's fine for your bog standard diesel passenger car.

Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: mjoekingz28] #4047432 03/24/16 03:20 AM
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Garak Offline
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Even back in the day when CF was active, the people I knew who had diesel engines would still choose HDEOs like Rotella and XD-3. Joe and others who have better memories about these products might be able to tell us if those were sold as CF first, then the gasoline rating, like HDEOs are now, or not.

There were lots of PCMOs with CF ratings then, and I don't know of anyone who gave them serious consideration for use in diesels, though.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: Garak] #4047438 03/24/16 03:41 AM
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Joe90_guy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Even back in the day when CF was active, the people I knew who had diesel engines would still choose HDEOs like Rotella and XD-3. Joe and others who have better memories about these products might be able to tell us if those were sold as CF first, then the gasoline rating, like HDEOs are now, or not.

There were lots of PCMOs with CF ratings then, and I don't know of anyone who gave them serious consideration for use in diesels, though.


You're right; no-one in the know took CF seriously. It was however one of those irritating 'luggage label' specs where the box had to be ticked. Even if your oil passed B4 and MB 228.5 you still had to get your oil through that POS Cat 1MPC and that was by no means a given!

Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: Joe90_guy] #4047447 03/24/16 04:13 AM
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Garak Offline
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We had two separate stashes of 10w-30 in those days. The taxis used 10w-30 Quaker State year round (and there was CF and the like on that stuff). We also had Esso XD-3 10w-30 for the diesels in winter. They were not considered interchangeable by my dad. wink


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: mjoekingz28] #4047581 03/24/16 08:11 AM
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yvon_la Offline
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Mobil delvac1 le 5w30 , avail at TA travel center . I call it the world wide oil. Mobil went to the trouble of getting it rated, now if they could do the same for Allison automatic transmission I could put that in my manual transmission (versa)yellow metal is a drag

Last edited by yvon_la; 03/24/16 08:14 AM.

Truck driver
Nissan versa note s 2014 total classic 5w30(qc.ca) drivework oil filter
Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: Joe90_guy] #4048076 03/24/16 06:46 PM
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Shannow Offline
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Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Originally Posted By: Garak
Even back in the day when CF was active, the people I knew who had diesel engines would still choose HDEOs like Rotella and XD-3. Joe and others who have better memories about these products might be able to tell us if those were sold as CF first, then the gasoline rating, like HDEOs are now, or not.

There were lots of PCMOs with CF ratings then, and I don't know of anyone who gave them serious consideration for use in diesels, though.


You're right; no-one in the know took CF seriously. It was however one of those irritating 'luggage label' specs where the box had to be ticked. Even if your oil passed B4 and MB 228.5 you still had to get your oil through that POS Cat 1MPC and that was by no means a given!


You might be able to help me nail down something that has peeved me in the ownership of my Nissan Navara (ZD30 turbodiesel).

Nissan state in the manual not to use anything "better" than CF-5, and specifically nothing CG-4 and newer...even offered to void my warranty if I played Delvac 1.

So as per the OP< I've been running petrol engine oils in my diesel (well specifically A3/B4).

Why do the Japanese manufacturers have such issues/stipulations ?

Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: mjoekingz28] #4048200 03/24/16 09:17 PM
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Silk Online Content
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Mitsubishi Japan still recommend CD oils for their diesels. We don't of course, but MNZ oils are not HDEO.


1987 BMW R65 - Penrite VTwin 20-50
2005 Nissan Expert - 5W-30 Castrol Edge
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.
Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: Shannow] #4048287 03/25/16 12:38 AM
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Joe90_guy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Originally Posted By: Garak
Even back in the day when CF was active, the people I knew who had diesel engines would still choose HDEOs like Rotella and XD-3. Joe and others who have better memories about these products might be able to tell us if those were sold as CF first, then the gasoline rating, like HDEOs are now, or not.

There were lots of PCMOs with CF ratings then, and I don't know of anyone who gave them serious consideration for use in diesels, though.


You're right; no-one in the know took CF seriously. It was however one of those irritating 'luggage label' specs where the box had to be ticked. Even if your oil passed B4 and MB 228.5 you still had to get your oil through that POS Cat 1MPC and that was by no means a given!


You might be able to help me nail down something that has peeved me in the ownership of my Nissan Navara (ZD30 turbodiesel).

Nissan state in the manual not to use anything "better" than CF-5, and specifically nothing CG-4 and newer...even offered to void my warranty if I played Delvac 1.

So as per the OP< I've been running petrol engine oils in my diesel (well specifically A3/B4).

Why do the Japanese manufacturers have such issues/stipulations ?



First off, is there a typo in your post? Do you mean CF-4? (CF-5 doesn't exist as far as I'm aware). In my experience, the Japanese are pretty much a law unto themselves. They usually do have a good reason for doing the things they do but they don't usually explain themselves well. For reasons I could never fathom, even the most mundane of technical facts are treated as State Secrets!

If I were to guess at what's behind the logic, Nissan might have had concerns about high dispersant treat rates (which have gone up for every new generation of HDDO's). Maybe they felt these were too aggressive to some of the seals used in the engine? Or it might have been they wanted oils based on Group I base stock (the higher iterations of HDDO progressively moved to Group II).

A3/B4 oils are mixed service PCMO's. They can be used on both gasoline and diesel engines. If anything, these days, they are more orientated towards diesel service because the tests are harder to pass and have more impact on the shape of the DI pack.

Hope that helps...

Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: mjoekingz28] #4048303 03/25/16 02:05 AM
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Shannow Offline
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Joe90_guy,
yeah, CF-4 was it.

Nissan DID at one stage give me a statement that the newer oils dispersed the soot, and lead to cam wear, while the older oils tended to collect soot particles to be filtered.

Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: Shannow] #4049251 03/26/16 08:28 AM
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Garak Offline
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Why do the Japanese manufacturers have such issues/stipulations ?

I think Doug chimed in on that one before, because I was asking much the same thing with some of their agricultural stuff. At least in some cases, they simply don't test the newer lubricants, and want to make things as basic and as simple for the "worst" market in which their product might be used, and perhaps aren't even willing to jump out on a limb, even one backed with some common sense.

I find it odd to call for an API spec, and then expressly forbid a newer API specification. To me, that seems like dirty pool. The API states that CJ-4 (and so forth) are backwards compatible to each previous specification. Most oil companies print the same verbiage on their data sheets. For example, look here, where they say meets or exceeds for all the current specs, and "recommended for" when it comes to obsolete specifications.

So, what are you supposed to do? You're supposed to hoard oil because CG-4 and older are currently obsolete, and you should have known that back then? So, they'd cover you if you bought an oil with a dodgy claim to an obsolete specification, but not cover you with a modern, licensed oil, that is required to be backwards compatible with the specification required.

You'd be doomed in Canada. Imperial Oil doesn't make anything licensed to an older specification than CJ-4. The only real attention they pay to an older specification, with products actually designed in that vein, are the monogrades for the two stroke diesel stuff.


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: Shannow] #4050847 03/28/16 07:04 AM
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supercity Offline
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Originally Posted By: Shannow


You might be able to help me nail down something that has peeved me in the ownership of my Nissan Navara (ZD30 turbodiesel).

Nissan state in the manual not to use anything "better" than CF-5, and specifically nothing CG-4 and newer...even offered to void my warranty if I played Delvac 1.

So as per the OP< I've been running petrol engine oils in my diesel (well specifically A3/B4).

Why do the Japanese manufacturers have such issues/stipulations ?


I believe they do allow or recommend DH-1 for that engine now.

Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: mjoekingz28] #4054649 04/01/16 03:45 AM
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zeng Offline
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Yeah, for Japanese diesel engines like Isuzu/Hino etc , I would scout for DHD-1/DH-1 approvals , a sequence in which Japanese Engines Manufacturers play a rather big role.

I select an HDEO carrying all appropvals of CI4/DHD-1/E7 in one, to cover my fleet of off-road diesel engines like Cat, Isuzu,Hino, Scania, Vovlo etc.

Last edited by zeng; 04/01/16 03:45 AM.
Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: mjoekingz28] #4054654 04/01/16 04:03 AM
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yvon_la Offline
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A special type of oil seal that doesnt like the mobil delvac1 le5w30 ?i ll assume its possible. But i would communicate with nissan canada.or nissan america or nissan japan directly to make.sure. i never heard of a diese vehicule that doesmt accept this oil. Never.and if it is really like that?sell the thing lol. Nissan domt use gl5 in transmission because of yellow metal issue. But if you get a an allison accepted you wont get issue.its a 300 hour yellow metal test. Even the oil maker were thinking itwas impossible to make and literally told allisom. Allison told them. Thats our condition for you to be acvepted by allison. The oil industry fixed what was wrong and now the oil is the most yellow metal friendly oil that exist for transmission

Last edited by yvon_la; 04/01/16 04:07 AM.

Truck driver
Nissan versa note s 2014 total classic 5w30(qc.ca) drivework oil filter
Re: SM/CF and other dual ratings [Re: Garak] #4073061 04/19/16 06:08 AM
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alarmguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Why do the Japanese manufacturers have such issues/stipulations ?

I think Doug chimed in on that one before, because I was asking much the same thing with some of their agricultural stuff. At least in some cases, they simply don't test the newer lubricants, and want to make things as basic and as simple for the "worst" market in which their product might be used, and perhaps aren't even willing to jump out on a limb, even one backed with some common sense.

I find it odd to call for an API spec, and then expressly forbid a newer API specification. To me, that seems like dirty pool. The API states that CJ-4 (and so forth) are backwards compatible to each previous specification. Most oil companies print the same verbiage on their data sheets. For example, look here, where they say meets or exceeds for all the current specs, and "recommended for" when it comes to obsolete specifications.
...


You know, I always thought they were backward compatible too. But according to this, if it is accurate (rushing to get going to work).
I ran across this right before running across this thread. This may shed some light, if correct on Shannows post.
It states CJ4 is only backwards compatible to CI4.
Oil Service Classifications.


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