Toyota 2.5L 2AR-FE startup rattle

[supton]

Not too long ago I came across the TSB 0041-13 for the 2.5L startup rattle. I believe I have that rattle, heard it for years, never thought much about it. Of course, I'm out of warranty... So my question is, can I just ignore this? It's just a bit minor startup noise, goes away after a second.

I mean, it's my wife's car, and she hasn't even noticed.

Also, just what is it that does the rattling? Just the camshaft rattling around inside the VVT actuator, until pressure builds up and holds it in place?

 

[Oro_O]

This can be oil-related. What oil are you using?

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: Or
This can be oil-related. What oil are you using?


Mobil. Don't know what the dealer used for the first 50k, but it was TGMO 0W20 from 60k-110k, and now has Mobil 1 AFE 0W20 now. Which sounded better this morning, but I think that's just my ears deceiving me.

 

[supton]

Nevermind, finally found a description of the noise that the TSB addresses--it's not what I'm hearing.

http://www.rav4world.com/forums/126-4-4-...tml#post2050553

Quote:
...[This] type of rattle indicates a problem in the VVT system. The VVT actuators are designed to return to a "home" position when the engine is shut down and held in place with a pin until oil pressure has reached it's normal value and the VVT actuators can operate as designed. However, sometimes the locking pin gets stuck and does not hold the VVT actuator in the right position upon start-up. When this happens you can hear a loud rattle and the engine shakes violently because the valves are out of timing. The rattle and shaking usually stop after a second or two, but sometimes you have to turn the engine off and restart it.


Don't have that, thus I don't have this issue.

 

[SatinSilver]

Yes, I've noticed it as well on the 2012 Camry and didn't think much of it. Just did a UOA recently and it turned out very well. Not sure I want the dealer ripping into the engine for the noise. If it was causing a ton of wear metals that would be a different story.

Is yours using any oil? I noticed this one using about a quart of oil over a 10k oci. About 9500 into the last oci I topped off with Mobil High Mileage 5w20. So we'll see if that helps any. So far no consumption but not many miles have been put on it since the last oil change. Probably only 800 miles.

 

[supton]

Come to speak of it, yes I noticed a bit of consumption on this last 10k OCI. Maybe a half quart, maybe a full quart--I just dump in 5qt when I change, no measurement involved, so it's overfull to start with. It was almost a half quart low a couple weeks prior to change.

This winter has been mild, but this OCI was a winter one. Dunno if that matters, fuel dilution, more cold starts, etc.

 

[Delta]

We get the startup rattle on ours, but just the typical timing chain tensioner noise before it gets oil pressure. Never any shaking or anything like that.

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: supton
Come to speak of it, yes I noticed a bit of consumption on this last 10k OCI. Maybe a half quart, maybe a full quart--I just dump in 5qt when I change, no measurement involved, so it's overfull to start with. It was almost a half quart low a couple weeks prior to change.


When the oci went to 10k the dipstick reading was changed. It used to be when the oil level was on the low mark it was a quart low. Now when it's on the low mark it's really two quarts low. So when the reading is halfway between the low and full mark it's really a quart low. Not sure if you were aware of that.

 

[SumpChump]

Originally Posted By: SatinSilver
Originally Posted By: supton
Come to speak of it, yes I noticed a bit of consumption on this last 10k OCI. Maybe a half quart, maybe a full quart--I just dump in 5qt when I change, no measurement involved, so it's overfull to start with. It was almost a half quart low a couple weeks prior to change.


When the oci went to 10k the dipstick reading was changed. It used to be when the oil level was on the low mark it was a quart low. Now when it's on the low mark it's really two quarts low. So when the reading is halfway between the low and full mark it's really a quart low. Not sure if you were aware of that.


Whoa, wait a minute.

To my knowledge the low mark is still just one quart.

Also, to the OP point. I didnt know that 2011 Camry's had the 2.5 .... I thought that started in 2012.

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: SumpChump
Whoa, wait a minute.

To my knowledge the low mark is still just one quart.

Also, to the OP point. I didnt know that 2011 Camry's had the 2.5 .... I thought that started in 2012.


The 2.5 came out in 2010 when the Camry had a mid-cycle refresh done to it. Yeah I'm not happy about the dipstick reading change. I found out about it on here. Sure enough when the level was halfway btwn low and full, one full quart took it to the full line.

edit: found the thread, looks like I was off a little bit. This guy says 1.6 quarts btwn low and high marks.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...nme#Post3879127

 

[crazyoildude]

Being in the engine business for a long time i noticed todays newer engines make lots of scary noises compared to the older engines without vvt and all the other goodies..My neighbor picked up a brand new Subaru last year and he asked me to listen to the engine he said he heard a knock. The engine is noisy but there is no knock. Both my 2011 Hyundai Santa Fe's with the v6 3.5 are very loud during a cold start from day one. Today one of them belongs to my next door neighbors 24 year old son and has 143,000 miles on it and still sounds the same and runs good. The other one i still have and also runs good with the same startup noise. There is so much going on inside an engine these days that there has to be some noise.

 

[Ursatdx]

My 5.7L Tundra sounds like a diesel when driven and temps are cool/cold and the engine is not up to temp.
Scary as a new owner.
Seems to have gotten quieter over time or I'm just getting used to it.
When at operating temps it is fine. I just let it warm up a bit now.

 

[AKhan87]

Originally Posted By: supton
Just the camshaft rattling around inside the VVT actuator, until pressure builds up and holds it in place?
I personally know a Toyota Tech at a Toyota Dealership near by, my 01 celica gt had this noice upon start-up as well, he said that in the newer models, replacing the intake camshaft has fixed that noise.

Since my vehicle had the older engine not known for this "rattling" noise for a millisecond upon start-up, I at first replaced the following:

New:
OEM chain
OEM guides
OEM tensioner

Used:
VVT-i actuator with many different ones that were known to not be noisy in other engines.

None of the above fixed the issue I was having, finally gave in, and put in one of the intake camshafts I had on me, and the issue was fixed.

 

[supton]

Good to know the marks are off. I'll keep that in mind in case usage goes up.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: supton
Nevermind, finally found a description of the noise that the TSB addresses--it's not what I'm hearing.

http://www.rav4world.com/forums/126-4-4-...tml#post2050553

Quote:
...[This] type of rattle indicates a problem in the VVT system. The VVT actuators are designed to return to a "home" position when the engine is shut down and held in place with a pin until oil pressure has reached it's normal value and the VVT actuators can operate as designed. However, sometimes the locking pin gets stuck and does not hold the VVT actuator in the right position upon start-up. When this happens you can hear a loud rattle and the engine shakes violently because the valves are out of timing. The rattle and shaking usually stop after a second or two, but sometimes you have to turn the engine off and restart it.


Don't have that, thus I don't have this issue.


My 2GR-FE will do the VVT shake once in a while. Only when cold and you start the car cold...drive it 30 feet into the garage and shut it off before hand. This has happened maybe once every 30,000 miles. you can shut it off and restart it or let it run for a few minutes at idle once it starts to warm up it goes away. The VVT actuators stick when cold on the winter. Never happens when it is over 35F. The dealer tech said I probably have one sticky actuator and should wait until it throws a constant CEL or I have nothing better to do then just replace it. OR remove it and clean it with brake cleaner.
He said some guy will never replace them and trade in at 250k with the same actuator still in it.