Flow vs efficiency

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Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Filters vary greatly in size, how can a thimble size hold the same as the garbage can size?


I don't think it can. However, its noteworthy Honda advocates changing the filter every other oil change, and the filter they use on the 3.5 is as small as I have ever seen.


I call the Honda filter "mid-sized"; ever look at some of the *really* small filters such as those found on some Chrysler and Mazda engines, positively dinky.
 
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I'm also surprised by the low holding capacity of the filters around 11-12 grams.......


Were the low holding capacity specs on over-sized filters too?


11-12 grammes is like a tablespoon of stuff caught on the filter.

That's certainly not "low" in an engine that's essentially sealed...it's like having 2,400ppm of insolubles stuck in the filter, and some times that in circulation.

Great point.

As noted 11-12 grams is a lot of contaminates/particulates, especially so in a well maintained engine. More than enough leeway for a vehicle manufacturer's recommended oci/fci.

Originally Posted By: gfh77665
....However, its noteworthy Honda advocates changing the filter every other oil change, and the filter they use on the 3.5 is as small as I have ever seen.

I just don't think the vast majority of filters ever come close to completely filling, and that even includes those used for two oil change intervals.


And Honda specs the longer 7317/14610 size filter, where Nissan and others spec the shorty thimble size version of that filter, the 6607/14612 application.


Do you have a reference that 11g is a lot of contaminants?
 
I still would like to see a reference to typical amount of contaminants produced in oil in typical gas engine per mile.
 
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
I still would like to see a reference to typical amount of contaminants produced in oil in typical gas engine per mile.


I'm thinking these filter designers/manufacturers that make an 'up to' mileage claim on a filter must have some kind of model they use for what an engine produces in terms of contaminates per 1000 miles or whatever. Then using that with the known holding capacity and a 'safety factor' they come up with a max recommended use mileage.

Since the recommended use mileage doesn't seem to be filter model specific, then that means even their smallest size filter fits in to their use recommendation. The much larger filter sized would seem to have even an added 'safety factor' for use mileage.
 
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
I still would like to see a reference to typical amount of contaminants produced in oil in typical gas engine per mile.


Pull apart a few and see what you find...1 tablespoon of stuff would be easy to see.


It's planes, but...
https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/airworth/awb/85/013.pdf

Quote:
Volume of debris

Probably the most important factor to consider, besides finding something like a gear tooth or other identifiable engine fragment in the oil, is the volume of metallic debris found in the filters. A satisfactory evaluation of the volume of metallic debris can only be completed when the contents of the suction and pressure filters, plus anything caught during the oil drain, has all been carefully collected and combined.

For example, a typical four or six cylinder engine; one manufacturer stipulates that if one quarter (¼) of a teaspoon or more of non-magnetic plating material which may have copperish tint, being 1/16th of an inch in diameter; or one quarter (¼) of a teaspoon non-magnetic metal with a brass or copperish colour resembling coarse sand in consistency - is discovered during any single oil and filter inspection, it is reason to ground the aircraft and investigate the engine further.

In fact, anytime 1/2 teaspoonful or more of metal is found in the filter, it is justification for engine removal. In order to collect as much debris as practicable, some maintainers place the paper element in a container with a quantity of solvent in order to gently agitate and flush contamination from the filter.
 
Quote:
In fact, anytime 1/2 teaspoonful or more of metal is found in the filter, it is justification for engine removal.


I hope so ... 1/2 teaspoon of metal means the engine is going downhill fast.

A US quarter weighs about 5.6 grams. That would be a lot of metal dust. A US half dollar weighs about 12.5 grams. Even the smallest oil filters could hold 12.5 grams of debris before becoming 'clogged'.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CT8
That chart is almost ancient.


A capillary viscometer is pretty ancient too...and still repeatable all these years later.
But the oil filters have changed over the years. The Delco Ultra filter is not available.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CT8
That chart is almost ancient.


A capillary viscometer is pretty ancient too...and still repeatable all these years later.
But the oil filters have changed over the years. The Delco Ultra filter is not available.


They actually are still available. But they don't seem to be full synthetic wire backed media anymore, but rather "Patented cellulose media".

http://www.acdelco.com/auto-parts/filters/speciality-ultra-guard-oil-filter.html
 
Good Morning BITOG'ers.
Let me start by saying that chart is ancient and does not reflect what AC Delco sells today, nor are the Ultra filters referenced FRAM, AC used to have a filter with that name.
That said, you all know that having good (above 85% efficiency@20 microns) is very important to engine life. While you all know that every engine and driving condition is different and there are alot of variables.
I was asked by a reader how much dirt actually gets into a filter in typical driving conditions. Again that depends on engine condition, maintenance practices and air filter sealing.
Here is a kind of average though for a clean, well maintained engine.
3000 miles, around 2-3 grams or up to 1 gram for every 1000 miles driven.
While many offshore made filters go into bypass by 3k miles, most USA and German made filters are total overkill on capacity.
Consider (And I use the PH8A size as a demo, sorry to use dinosaur). The PH8A holds 11 grams, The TG8A holds 15 grams, the XG8A holds 32 grams. So, why not use the PH8A for 10k miles? Mainly because it uses a nitrile rubber ADBV that can work harden around the 7k mark, it does have the capacity. Could you use it for 10k? yes, if you did 10K in less than 6 months which means you are hammering down the freeway all the time. If it took you 12 months to go 10k, then the answer is no.
Filers advertised for 10k (TG and others)will have a silicone ADBV and alot more synthetic glass fibers used in the filter media. Filters advertised to go in excess of 15k, FRAM Ultra, Puro Boss, Amsoil ect, have silicone ADBV and full synthetic media. The reality is the Ultra could go 30k miles BUT, like all companies we have lawyers that evaluate risk and choose to err on the side of caution. Most likely in northern states that use salt on the roads, the can could rust before the filter was full.
Hope this helps and always remember that if you choose to have extended intervals, use the best quality oil that meets the vehicles specs. I am very happy that one poster mentioned the air filter. If you look at every manufacturers sales numbers, we do not sell enough air filters for the amount of miles driven nationally. It is a very important filter. I can be reached for questions anytime at the email in my signature. Thanks for your time.
 
Originally Posted By: steveh
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/ACD6/UPF44.oap?pt=02269&ppt=C0023

The ACD Ultra Guard a solid if pricey filter at ~$17.

One interesting/curious thing about it's construction is it uses a nitrile adbv. Otoh, Fleet Guard Stratapore and Donaldson, the latter being the pioneer in synthetic media (see OVERKILL), also use a nitrile adbv.

And as said, initially quoted and confirmed by Shannow and later Zee, 11-12 gram of contaminates/particulates is a huge amount junk. One manufacturer that quoted 13 grams holding capacity compared it to 31 standard sized paperclips. If your engine is shedding that much material over the course of a recommended oci/fci, you've got much bigger issues than oil filter selection.
 
How much dirt does the 3614, 4386 and 4967 Fram series hold? Those are the ones I use, and are different sizes. They can't hold the same. What factor determines what they hold, pressure drop? How much?
One thing I do know is the Toyota black adbv, after use on the ones I have seen, looks and feels like it is new and could be put into a new filter and reused. Just because an adbv is black doesn't mean it is the same exact material as a hardened up one. It could be Baldwin etc also know what to make the adbv out of to last, and it is still black.
 
Originally Posted By: Motorking
Consider (And I use the PH8A size as a demo, sorry to use dinosaur). The PH8A holds 11 grams, The TG8A holds 15 grams, the XG8A holds 32 grams.


When a PH8A is loaded up with 11 grams, how is flow impacted? Are you implying that 11 grams does not have any meaningful impact on flowrate, or is the flow very restricted by the time you get to 11 grams?
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Even the smallest oil filters could hold 12.5 grams of debris before becoming 'clogged'.


Not necessarily true.

Here’s the values for two Made in Germany Mann filters. I got the information by email from the Mann Germany.

- Mann W67/1 (almost the same size as PL14612/M1-108, “Nissan shorty”): Dust holding capacity = 4 grams
- Mann W610/3 (almost the same size as PL14610/M1-110, oversized shorty): Dust holding capacity = 7 grams

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3788708/1
 
Originally Posted By: Motorking
I was asked by a reader how much dirt actually gets into a filter in typical driving conditions. Again that depends on engine condition, maintenance practices and air filter sealing.

Here is a kind of average though for a clean, well maintained engine.
3000 miles, around 2-3 grams or up to 1 gram for every 1000 miles driven.


Nissan recommends 9,320 miles (15,000 km) OCI for my car. It would mean up to 9.3 grams of dust in a clean and well maintained engine. And the correct size oil filter (W67/1) holds only 4 grams of dust.

Something's not right here...
 
Originally Posted By: finmile
Originally Posted By: Motorking
I was asked by a reader how much dirt actually gets into a filter in typical driving conditions. Again that depends on engine condition, maintenance practices and air filter sealing.

Here is a kind of average though for a clean, well maintained engine.
3000 miles, around 2-3 grams or up to 1 gram for every 1000 miles driven.


Nissan recommends 9,320 miles (15,000 km) OCI for my car. It would mean up to 9.3 grams of dust in a clean and well maintained engine. And the correct size oil filter (W67/1) holds only 4 grams of dust.

Something's not right here...


Up to. Maybe your car is less. But how do you know the spec on the OEM filter for your Nissan? Is that published?
 
I don't.

In Europe 15,000 km is the minimum OCI any car maker would recommend. So, neither of the Mann filters I mentioned above would be suitable for European market? Doesn't sound right.

I had to google what M1-108 says about its capacity, and it promises 28 grams. It also states that it "holds double the contaminants compared to other filters". So, for "normal" filter the value would be 14 grams. PL14612 says it can hold (probably "up to") 13 grams. So these two are in line with each other.

But Mann only promises 4 grams for the same size and 7 grams for the oversized oil filter.

That difference is astounding! So, something's not right here. Maybe they are doing the capacity measurements with different standards...?

Source of infomation for M1-108 and PL14612:
http://www.amazon.com/Mobil-M1-108-Extended-Performance-Filter/dp/B004D5SUIC
http://www.ebay.com/itm/No-PL14612-Purolator-PureONE-Oil-Filter-/400995910941
 
Originally Posted By: finmile
PL14612 says it can hold (probably "up to") 13 grams. So these two are in line with each other.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/No-PL14612-Purolator-PureONE-Oil-Filter-/400995910941


Could be they are just using the old Purolator PureOne claim of 13 grams ... but that was on their super large oil filter - PL30001. I highly doubt the eBay seller has the holding capacity of every oil filter model.

BTW ... $28.67 for a PL14612. That's just crazy.
 
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