Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition

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My first extended drain. Not quite sure what to think. Compared to the other samples there are some interesting trends.

Code:


OIL Castrol 5w30 Trop 5w30 NAPA 5w20

Edge Artic Synthetic

Gold Bottle SynBlend



MILES IN USE 9,980 4,989 6,447

MILES 149,085 125,086 114,429

SAMPLE TAKEN 01/14/15 10/23/14 06/01/14





Metals (ppm)

IRON 88 10 45

CHROMIUM 2
LEAD 1
COPPER 4 1 2

TIN
ALUMINUM 19 4 22

NICKEL
SILVER
TITANIUM 20
VANADIUM



Contaminants (ppm)

SILICON 12 8 10

SODIUM 18 17 278

POTASSIUM


Additives (ppm)

MAGNESIUM 278 14 118

CALCIUM 1990 2044 1792

BARIUM
PHOSPHORUS 648 690 627

ZINC 755 761 730

MOLYBDENUM 69 15 6

BORON 58 70 9



Contaminants

WATER (%)
Coolant No No No



Physical Tests

Visc (cSt 100C) 8.9 8.9 9.0



TBN (mgKOH/g) 2.4 2.6 2.5


The relatively high iron (compared to the trop artic) is interesting. but what is more interesting is that on a per 1,000 miles basis the iron level is about the same as it was with the Napa 5w20. Why I find this interesting is that these were both winter time OCI's and the silicon levels are remarkably similar. The trop artic sample was all highway summertime miles with a different brand of air filter and much lower SI.

the aluminum was still quite a bit lower than the NAPA which for this motor could mean less wear on the top end -- which would be quite good.

The TBN is outstanding for that mileage, but this would represent one quart of Edge black, and 2 quarts of Edge gold for top off in the 10k oci.

surprised at the viscosity, though. I would have thought that the Castrol would have held on to the viscosity a little better.

surprised at the copper and lead. but with more miles, maybe those numbers aren't concerning.

What do you guys think about running 10,000 miles on an OCI during the winter?
I'm still new at this so help me out.

Oh, this was with a Bosch D+ oil filter.

Current fill is the same oil for same OCI and Fram Ultra filter.
 
Is this a 4.6 or 5.4 modular engine? I am assuming so since it is a 2006. Wow! that is a really high iron reading--the same for the aluminum. I ran my 2010 FX4 5.4L for 15-17K on M1 AFE and never had readings like that. Anything special with the operating conditions?
 
Extending OCIs always seems like a good idea at first, until it's not. Like this:

58777d1442190342-step-ladder-two-feet-bathtub-swimming-pool-ladder-electrician.jpg
 
Last edited:
Wear is very, very high for the miles, engine is wearing very poorly.

Oil seems to be in okay shape, leading me to believe something is wrong with the engine.

I'd cut way back to 3-5k OCI's.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Is this a 4.6 or 5.4 modular engine? I am assuming so since it is a 2006. Wow! that is a really high iron reading--the same for the aluminum. I ran my 2010 FX4 5.4L for 15-17K on M1 AFE and never had readings like that. Anything special with the operating conditions?


Yes, there is, which I forgot to mention.

I do live on gravel so at a minimum I travel 3 miles per day of gravel. Sometimes up to 20 miles per day, So I think that partly weighs into it. I would estimate that of the 9900 miles, about 500 of them would be on gravel. Probably more since I drove from hill city SD to Newcastle Wy and back without hitting pavement.

This oil was in service for about 5 months and accounts for about 24 fills @ 20gal avg/fill. So about 500 gallons of fuel. Also, not parking in a garage and extended idle times in the morning.

I'm inclined to think that this engine just wears like this in the winter but wears pretty well in the summer on the highway.

I am thinking 7500 on magnetec might be more prudent, though.
 
Originally Posted By: meborder
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Is this a 4.6 or 5.4 modular engine? I am assuming so since it is a 2006. Wow! that is a really high iron reading--the same for the aluminum. I ran my 2010 FX4 5.4L for 15-17K on M1 AFE and never had readings like that. Anything special with the operating conditions?
Yes, there is, which I forgot to mention. I do live on gravel so at a minimum I travel 3 miles per day of gravel. Sometimes up to 20 miles per day, So I think that partly weighs into it. I would estimate that of the 9900 miles, about 500 of them would be on gravel. Probably more since I drove from hill city SD to Newcastle Wy and back without hitting pavement. This oil was in service for about 5 months and accounts for about 24 fills @ 20gal avg/fill. So about 500 gallons of fuel. Also, not parking in a garage and extended idle times in the morning. I'm inclined to think that this engine just wears like this in the winter but wears pretty well in the summer on the highway. I am thinking 7500 on magnetec might be more prudent, though.
The silicon levels are fairly low so I do not think the gravel is a playing a large factor in the elevated wear metals. The extended idling could be a factor, the viscosity is a little low, but that is still a lot of wear metal. An xW-20 in my modular did not produce results like that.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
The silicon levels are fairly low so I do not think the gravel is a playing a large factor in the elevated wear metals. The extended idling could be a factor, the viscosity is a little low, but that is still a lot of wear metal. An xW-20 in my modular did not produce results like that.


I have to admit, I'm slightly confused and a little disappointed.

your UOA's are one of the reasons I figured a 10kOCI was possible with this engine (it is indeed the 5.4 3v).

I'm not convinced there is a motor problem, but I'm confused by the high iron. If the OCI with the trop artic had shown high wear numbers, then I'd tend to agree. but when I posted that UOA all the comments indicated that the engine must be in pretty good shape.

I'm left wondering why my two winter OCI's show very high wear, and my one summer OCI shows very low wear. this is why I'm so freaking mad that the post office lost my last UOA. that would have been and 8.5kOCI in the summer, which could have been very telling.

Also interesting is that my lab report says "all wear rates normal. Abrasive and other contaminant levels are acceptable. Viscosity within specified operating range." and shows no cautionary items. Clearly, this sheared down into the 20wt range. So I'm not sure why they would comment to the contrary.

Not sure what to do.
I don't like the high numbers, but at the same time it is below the "cautionary range"

the whole point is to spend less time under the car changing oil, so going back to a 5k oci with trop artic is my least favorite option. I love trop artic, just not wanting to go back to 5k oci's.
 
Originally Posted By: meborder
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
The silicon levels are fairly low so I do not think the gravel is a playing a large factor in the elevated wear metals. The extended idling could be a factor, the viscosity is a little low, but that is still a lot of wear metal. An xW-20 in my modular did not produce results like that.


I have to admit, I'm slightly confused and a little disappointed.

your UOA's are one of the reasons I figured a 10kOCI was possible with this engine (it is indeed the 5.4 3v).

I'm not convinced there is a motor problem, but I'm confused by the high iron. If the OCI with the trop artic had shown high wear numbers, then I'd tend to agree. but when I posted that UOA all the comments indicated that the engine must be in pretty good shape.

I'm left wondering why my two winter OCI's show very high wear, and my one summer OCI shows very low wear. this is why I'm so freaking mad that the post office lost my last UOA. that would have been and 8.5kOCI in the summer, which could have been very telling.

Also interesting is that my lab report says "all wear rates normal. Abrasive and other contaminant levels are acceptable. Viscosity within specified operating range." and shows no cautionary items. Clearly, this sheared down into the 20wt range. So I'm not sure why they would comment to the contrary.

Not sure what to do.
I don't like the high numbers, but at the same time it is below the "cautionary range"

the whole point is to spend less time under the car changing oil, so going back to a 5k oci with trop artic is my least favorite option. I love trop artic, just not wanting to go back to 5k oci's.
Is this a Blackstone UOA? Certainly a 10K OCI should be possible with the right oil, but I too, had more wear metals (albeit slightly more) in the winter versus the summer. I added the universal averages (from Blackstone for a Ford Modular) to your chart to make a comparison. Your engine does not "like" Castrol or NAPA (likely Ashland oil). Have you tried any MS5K or M1 oils? They both did very well in my 5.4L, even when towing and in the winter. Modulars are not known to shear oil much, but without the flash point and the fuel readings, it is difficult to tell why the viscosity dropped.

Code:
OIL Castrol5w30 Trop5w30 NAPA5w20 Universal

Edge Artic Synthetic Averages

Gold Bottle Syn Blend



MILES IN USE 9,980 4,989 6,447 5,500

MILES 149,085 125,086 114,429

SAMPLE TAKEN 01/14/15 10/23/14 06/01/14





Metals (ppm)

IRON 88 10 45 19

CHROMIUM 2
LEAD 1
COPPER 4 1 2 3

TIN
ALUMINUM 19 4 22 4

NICKEL
SILVER
TITANIUM 20
VANADIUM



Contaminants (ppm)

SILICON 12 8 10 13

SODIUM 18 17 278 52

POTASSIUM


Additives (ppm)

MAGNESIUM 278 14 118 157

CALCIUM 1990 2044 1792 2063

BARIUM
PHOSPHORUS 648 690 627 715

ZINC 755 761 730 817

MOLYBDENUM 69 15 6 70

BORON 58 70 9 56



Contaminants

WATER (%)
Coolant No No No



Physical Tests

Visc (cSt100C) 8.9 8.9 9.0



TBN (mgKOH/g) 2.4 2.6 2.5
 
I didn't think the Ford mod motors sheared oil that much. I wonder if it's more of a fuel dilution issue. If there's a downside to ALS labs, it's that they don't test for fuel in gasoline engine oil samples. I would try a different lab to get a look at fuel dilution. Blackstone gets criticized for their method, but it still gives some indication of fuel in oil. Not sure why ALS doesn't look at fuel (they do in diesel engine samples).

Those two samples with high aluminum and iron indicate abrasive wear as if they were high in silicon but that isn't bad at all. The only thing that I can figure is there is some rusting going on in the cylinders. I know that sounds crazy but it's as if there's condensation or something causing a slight amount of rust in the cylinders and every time you start the engine (well cold start after a night off) you get some abrasive wear within a cylinder or cylinders. Maybe you have some long times between starts?

The bearing wear looks almost non existent so don't worry about that. If you continued for many, many more miles you might see a little bearing corrosion due to high acidity but it's looking good in those samples. I saw a spike in my truck engines bearing materials when I dropped below a TBN of 1 but you're samples are still showing good base numbers. With three quarts of makeup oil I would expect a higher level but it's still fine.
 
I think the bearings are aluminum in these engines - the Al wear IS bearing wear, and it is high.

If you want to stick to 10k intervals, I'd go to a thicker 30-weight or a 40-weight to see if it helps - GC 0W-30; M1 0W-40; or something like T6 5W-40.
 
You don't think it could be cylinder wear? I would sooner think it's abrasive wear within cylinders but I'm not betting the farm on it. The chromium is another indicator showing a slight amount of ring wear.

Just my thoughts. It's hard for me to think of it as bearing wear.
 
I'd say the aluminum wear is from piston skirts, aggravated by cold idling and running in a SD winter. The #'s are a little high, but not crazy IMO. The motor isn't going to wear out next week...or next year. Try a blend at 7.5k OCI and see what it looks like if you're worried. Me, I'd just run SuperTech dino 5W-30 at 7.5k and call it a day. Keep it topped off.
 
Originally Posted By: dustyroads
I didn't think the Ford mod motors sheared oil that much. I wonder if it's more of a fuel dilution issue. If there's a downside to ALS labs, it's that they don't test for fuel in gasoline engine oil samples. I would try a different lab to get a look at fuel dilution. Blackstone gets criticized for their method, but it still gives some indication of fuel in oil. Not sure why ALS doesn't look at fuel (they do in diesel engine samples).

Those two samples with high aluminum and iron indicate abrasive wear as if they were high in silicon but that isn't bad at all. The only thing that I can figure is there is some rusting going on in the cylinders. I know that sounds crazy but it's as if there's condensation or something causing a slight amount of rust in the cylinders and every time you start the engine (well cold start after a night off) you get some abrasive wear within a cylinder or cylinders. Maybe you have some long times between starts?

The bearing wear looks almost non existent so don't worry about that. If you continued for many, many more miles you might see a little bearing corrosion due to high acidity but it's looking good in those samples. I saw a spike in my truck engines bearing materials when I dropped below a TBN of 1 but you're samples are still showing good base numbers. With three quarts of makeup oil I would expect a higher level but it's still fine.


thanks for the response!

I put on 10k in 5 months, so it doesn't sit much
smile.gif
and it is always "fully warm" when I shut it down. it is my daily driver and long tripper. but the bulk of the miles this time was driving to work and back. I think there was only one long trip right at the beginning of the OCI.

I'm wondering if some of the wear in the winter isn't because the oil never really gets warm. I don't short trip at all, but I'm thinking that even in my 25 mile drive that the oil is never fully warm.

I'm really confused as to why the FE and AL would be as high as it is. but aside from towing, I think this is probably the worst case scenario for this vehicle.
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Is this a Blackstone UOA? Certainly a 10K OCI should be possible with the right oil, but I too, had more wear metals (albeit slightly more) in the winter versus the summer. I added the universal averages (from Blackstone for a Ford Modular) to your chart to make a comparison. Your engine does not "like" Castrol or NAPA (likely Ashland oil). Have you tried any MS5K or M1 oils? They both did very well in my 5.4L, even when towing and in the winter. Modulars are not known to shear oil much, but without the flash point and the fuel readings, it is difficult to tell why the viscosity dropped.

Code:
OIL Castrol5w30 Trop5w30 NAPA5w20 Universal

Edge Artic Synthetic Averages

Gold Bottle Syn Blend



MILES IN USE 9,980 4,989 6,447 5,500

MILES 149,085 125,086 114,429

SAMPLE TAKEN 01/14/15 10/23/14 06/01/14





Metals (ppm)

IRON 88 10 45 19

CHROMIUM 2
LEAD 1
COPPER 4 1 2 3

TIN
ALUMINUM 19 4 22 4

NICKEL
SILVER
TITANIUM 20
VANADIUM



Contaminants (ppm)

SILICON 12 8 10 13

SODIUM 18 17 278 52

POTASSIUM


Additives (ppm)

MAGNESIUM 278 14 118 157

CALCIUM 1990 2044 1792 2063

BARIUM
PHOSPHORUS 648 690 627 715

ZINC 755 761 730 817

MOLYBDENUM 69 15 6 70

BORON 58 70 9 56



Contaminants

WATER (%)
Coolant No No No



Physical Tests

Visc (cSt100C) 8.9 8.9 9.0



TBN (mgKOH/g) 2.4 2.6 2.5






thanks for the universal averages.
this was a report from NAPA. I've thought about using blackstone, but for less money I get the TBN from NAPA. I guess it is worth considering.

a little disappointing to think that my truck doesn't appear to like the Castrol.... I've always liked Castrol, but I'm willing to try M1. I was hoping to just confirm that this works fine and not have to run any more UOA's.

wondering if I can find another oil with a similar add=pack as the trop artic.....
 
Originally Posted By: addyguy
I think the bearings are aluminum in these engines - the Al wear IS bearing wear, and it is high.

If you want to stick to 10k intervals, I'd go to a thicker 30-weight or a 40-weight to see if it helps - GC 0W-30; M1 0W-40; or something like T6 5W-40.


the cams ride right on the aluminum head with no bearings on this motor. the rest is pretty conventional.

so the AL could be from the heads or the piston skirts..... probably never know which, though, unless some other metals give us a clue.

the chromium was mentioned, but with only 2ppm in 10k miles, I don't think the rings are suffering too bad.... at least in my mind.


So the 10,000 dollar question is:
I have Castrol Edge Gold onboard now with a Fram Ultra filter.... when do I change it?
 
Originally Posted By: meborder
this was a report from NAPA. I've thought about using blackstone, but for less money I get the TBN from NAPA. I guess it is worth considering.
No need to pay 2x the cost for a Blackstone UOA.
Originally Posted By: meborder
wondering if I can find another oil with a similar add=pack as the trop artic.....
TropArctic uses a moly/boron additive package and Castrol Edge Gold has the same type of additive package (except with titanium added on the new formula), but it does not appear to run as well as the TropArctic. I would run the Castrol at least 7.5K to get something out of it. If you are not fond of M1, you may want to give Pennzoil a shot, PU and PUP both have moly/boron as additives.
 
Here's another theory. The Trop-Arctic was bad at keeping wear metals in suspension any they accumulated in the engine until the Castrol Gold washed it out and you got a scary UOA.

How clean is this engine?

Your changing oils at each oil change makes for poor trending. Chose an oil and stick with it for a few 7500 mile OCIs and see if there are any trends. I really don't believe that you have a problem outside of your South Dakota operating conditions and that's minor.
 
Originally Posted By: car51
How about the MC synblend? Or Kendall semi or full syn?

same as Trop Artic, no?

Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
No need to pay 2x the cost for a Blackstone UOA.
TropArctic uses a moly/boron additive package and Castrol Edge Gold has the same type of additive package (except with titanium added on the new formula), but it does not appear to run as well as the TropArctic. I would run the Castrol at least 7.5K to get something out of it. If you are not fond of M1, you may want to give Pennzoil a shot, PU and PUP both have moly/boron as additives.

I have no problem running the M1 and I might try that the next OCI. I think I'll run the Gold out to 7,500 like you said and maybe try the M1 after that.

I tried Pennzoil Platnium and wasn't happy with it. after 5,000 miles the motor was very noisy and the oil was jet black. Not interested in a repeat of that product.

Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
Here's another theory. The Trop-Arctic was bad at keeping wear metals in suspension any they accumulated in the engine until the Castrol Gold washed it out and you got a scary UOA.

interesting theory, I had not considered that.
however, between the trop artic UOA and the current I ran Pennzoil Platnium for 5,000 miles and Castrol Black for 8,500 miles. so if your theory is right, then it is probably the Castrol Black, unless the black couldn't carry all the stuff left over form the Pennzoil. Being that my UOA of Castrol Black went MIA (THANK YOU USPS!!!!) we'll never know for sure.

Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
How clean is this engine?

I feel it is pretty clean.

HERE is a filter cut on the Castrol Black @ 8,500 OCI (give or take)

I have the Distance Plus filter sitting ready to be cut, but have not had the time. I think the engine is plenty clean, at least without any signs otherwise.

Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
Your changing oils at each oil change makes for poor trending. Chose an oil and stick with it for a few 7500 mile OCIs and see if there are any trends.

Fair enough, but I wasn't really trying to build a trend. I really just want to pick a service program and stick to it and verify it by UOA -- then run them once in a blue moon.

Originally Posted By: Joshua_Skinner
I really don't believe that you have a problem outside of your South Dakota operating conditions and that's minor.

I'm hoping that's the case. Unfortunately the UOA that proves/disproves this theory got lost in the mail. I might repeat the exercise this summer, or even on this OCI, but it's still cold so I'm not sure that this OCI is the one to do it or not.


Thanks to everyone for the good discussion.
I really appreciate all the feed back and insight.
 
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