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Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition #4018725 02/22/16 05:30 PM
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meborder Offline OP
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My first extended drain. Not quite sure what to think. Compared to the other samples there are some interesting trends.

Code:
OIL             Castrol 5w30	Trop 5w30	NAPA 5w20
		Edge		Artic	 	Synthetic
		Gold Bottle	SynBlend

MILES IN USE    9,980		4,989     	6,447     
MILES           149,085		125,086   	114,429   
SAMPLE TAKEN    01/14/15	10/23/14 	06/01/14  

   
Metals (ppm)   
IRON            88		10       	45       
CHROMIUM        2		<1        	<1     
LEAD            1		<1       	<1       
COPPER          4		1       	2       
TIN             <1		<1        	<1        
ALUMINUM        19		4       	22     
NICKEL          <1		<1        	<1        
SILVER          <1		<1        	<1      
TITANIUM        20		<1       	<1       
VANADIUM	

Contaminants (ppm)
SILICON         12		8        	10
SODIUM          18		17       	278       
POTASSIUM       <1		<5       	6      

Additives (ppm)
MAGNESIUM       278		14      	118
CALCIUM         1990		2044     	1792     
BARIUM          <1		<1        	<1
PHOSPHORUS      648		690      	627      
ZINC            755		761		730     
MOLYBDENUM      69		15        	6       
BORON           58		70        	9       

Contaminants
WATER (%)	<0.05		<0.05        	<0.05
Coolant		No		No		No

Physical Tests
Visc (cSt 100C)	8.9		8.9		9.0 
 
TBN (mgKOH/g)	2.4		2.6		2.5


The relatively high iron (compared to the trop artic) is interesting. but what is more interesting is that on a per 1,000 miles basis the iron level is about the same as it was with the Napa 5w20. Why I find this interesting is that these were both winter time OCI's and the silicon levels are remarkably similar. The trop artic sample was all highway summertime miles with a different brand of air filter and much lower SI.

the aluminum was still quite a bit lower than the NAPA which for this motor could mean less wear on the top end -- which would be quite good.

The TBN is outstanding for that mileage, but this would represent one quart of Edge black, and 2 quarts of Edge gold for top off in the 10k oci.

surprised at the viscosity, though. I would have thought that the Castrol would have held on to the viscosity a little better.

surprised at the copper and lead. but with more miles, maybe those numbers aren't concerning.

What do you guys think about running 10,000 miles on an OCI during the winter?
I'm still new at this so help me out.

Oh, this was with a Bosch D+ oil filter.

Current fill is the same oil for same OCI and Fram Ultra filter.


Too many cars using too many different oils to list in 150 characters.
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: meborder] #4018745 02/22/16 05:51 PM
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Is this a 4.6 or 5.4 modular engine? I am assuming so since it is a 2006. Wow! that is a really high iron reading--the same for the aluminum. I ran my 2010 FX4 5.4L for 15-17K on M1 AFE and never had readings like that. Anything special with the operating conditions?


2019 Jeep Rubicon Wrangler Unlimited 3.6L V6 [OEM + Factory Fill]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 & Mann filter]
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: meborder] #4018868 02/22/16 07:30 PM
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DrRoughneck Offline
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Extending OCIs always seems like a good idea at first, until it's not. Like this:


Last edited by DrRoughneck; 02/22/16 07:30 PM.
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: meborder] #4018933 02/22/16 08:23 PM
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addyguy Offline
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Wear is very, very high for the miles, engine is wearing very poorly.

Oil seems to be in okay shape, leading me to believe something is wrong with the engine.

I'd cut way back to 3-5k OCI's.


2010 Kia Soul 2U - 2.0L I-4, auto; 145k miles.
Castrol GTX HM 5W-30, STP blue bottle; Fram TG 9688.

2009 Pontiac G5 - 2.2 I-4, auto, 121k miles.
Oil/filter TBD
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: meborder] #4018938 02/22/16 08:26 PM
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Ded Mazai Online Content
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The key word is "Blend". Synthetics often don't work well in an oil consuming engine.

Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: 2015_PSD] #4019011 02/22/16 09:39 PM
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meborder Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Is this a 4.6 or 5.4 modular engine? I am assuming so since it is a 2006. Wow! that is a really high iron reading--the same for the aluminum. I ran my 2010 FX4 5.4L for 15-17K on M1 AFE and never had readings like that. Anything special with the operating conditions?


Yes, there is, which I forgot to mention.

I do live on gravel so at a minimum I travel 3 miles per day of gravel. Sometimes up to 20 miles per day, So I think that partly weighs into it. I would estimate that of the 9900 miles, about 500 of them would be on gravel. Probably more since I drove from hill city SD to Newcastle Wy and back without hitting pavement.

This oil was in service for about 5 months and accounts for about 24 fills @ 20gal avg/fill. So about 500 gallons of fuel. Also, not parking in a garage and extended idle times in the morning.

I'm inclined to think that this engine just wears like this in the winter but wears pretty well in the summer on the highway.

I am thinking 7500 on magnetec might be more prudent, though.


Too many cars using too many different oils to list in 150 characters.
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: meborder] #4019126 02/22/16 11:19 PM
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Posts: 7,934
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Originally Posted By: meborder
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Is this a 4.6 or 5.4 modular engine? I am assuming so since it is a 2006. Wow! that is a really high iron reading--the same for the aluminum. I ran my 2010 FX4 5.4L for 15-17K on M1 AFE and never had readings like that. Anything special with the operating conditions?
Yes, there is, which I forgot to mention. I do live on gravel so at a minimum I travel 3 miles per day of gravel. Sometimes up to 20 miles per day, So I think that partly weighs into it. I would estimate that of the 9900 miles, about 500 of them would be on gravel. Probably more since I drove from hill city SD to Newcastle Wy and back without hitting pavement. This oil was in service for about 5 months and accounts for about 24 fills @ 20gal avg/fill. So about 500 gallons of fuel. Also, not parking in a garage and extended idle times in the morning. I'm inclined to think that this engine just wears like this in the winter but wears pretty well in the summer on the highway. I am thinking 7500 on magnetec might be more prudent, though.
The silicon levels are fairly low so I do not think the gravel is a playing a large factor in the elevated wear metals. The extended idling could be a factor, the viscosity is a little low, but that is still a lot of wear metal. An xW-20 in my modular did not produce results like that.


2019 Jeep Rubicon Wrangler Unlimited 3.6L V6 [OEM + Factory Fill]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 & Mann filter]
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: 2015_PSD] #4019449 02/23/16 11:24 AM
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meborder Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
The silicon levels are fairly low so I do not think the gravel is a playing a large factor in the elevated wear metals. The extended idling could be a factor, the viscosity is a little low, but that is still a lot of wear metal. An xW-20 in my modular did not produce results like that.


I have to admit, I'm slightly confused and a little disappointed.

your UOA's are one of the reasons I figured a 10kOCI was possible with this engine (it is indeed the 5.4 3v).

I'm not convinced there is a motor problem, but I'm confused by the high iron. If the OCI with the trop artic had shown high wear numbers, then I'd tend to agree. but when I posted that UOA all the comments indicated that the engine must be in pretty good shape.

I'm left wondering why my two winter OCI's show very high wear, and my one summer OCI shows very low wear. this is why I'm so freaking mad that the post office lost my last UOA. that would have been and 8.5kOCI in the summer, which could have been very telling.

Also interesting is that my lab report says "all wear rates normal. Abrasive and other contaminant levels are acceptable. Viscosity within specified operating range." and shows no cautionary items. Clearly, this sheared down into the 20wt range. So I'm not sure why they would comment to the contrary.

Not sure what to do.
I don't like the high numbers, but at the same time it is below the "cautionary range"

the whole point is to spend less time under the car changing oil, so going back to a 5k oci with trop artic is my least favorite option. I love trop artic, just not wanting to go back to 5k oci's.


Too many cars using too many different oils to list in 150 characters.
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: meborder] #4019615 02/23/16 01:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
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Originally Posted By: meborder
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
The silicon levels are fairly low so I do not think the gravel is a playing a large factor in the elevated wear metals. The extended idling could be a factor, the viscosity is a little low, but that is still a lot of wear metal. An xW-20 in my modular did not produce results like that.


I have to admit, I'm slightly confused and a little disappointed.

your UOA's are one of the reasons I figured a 10kOCI was possible with this engine (it is indeed the 5.4 3v).

I'm not convinced there is a motor problem, but I'm confused by the high iron. If the OCI with the trop artic had shown high wear numbers, then I'd tend to agree. but when I posted that UOA all the comments indicated that the engine must be in pretty good shape.

I'm left wondering why my two winter OCI's show very high wear, and my one summer OCI shows very low wear. this is why I'm so freaking mad that the post office lost my last UOA. that would have been and 8.5kOCI in the summer, which could have been very telling.

Also interesting is that my lab report says "all wear rates normal. Abrasive and other contaminant levels are acceptable. Viscosity within specified operating range." and shows no cautionary items. Clearly, this sheared down into the 20wt range. So I'm not sure why they would comment to the contrary.

Not sure what to do.
I don't like the high numbers, but at the same time it is below the "cautionary range"

the whole point is to spend less time under the car changing oil, so going back to a 5k oci with trop artic is my least favorite option. I love trop artic, just not wanting to go back to 5k oci's.
Is this a Blackstone UOA? Certainly a 10K OCI should be possible with the right oil, but I too, had more wear metals (albeit slightly more) in the winter versus the summer. I added the universal averages (from Blackstone for a Ford Modular) to your chart to make a comparison. Your engine does not "like" Castrol or NAPA (likely Ashland oil). Have you tried any MS5K or M1 oils? They both did very well in my 5.4L, even when towing and in the winter. Modulars are not known to shear oil much, but without the flash point and the fuel readings, it is difficult to tell why the viscosity dropped.

Code:
OIL				Castrol5w30		Trop5w30	NAPA5w20		Universal
				Edge			Artic		Synthetic		Averages
				Gold Bottle		Syn Blend

MILES IN USE			9,980			4,989		6,447			5,500
MILES				149,085			125,086		114,429
SAMPLE TAKEN			01/14/15		10/23/14	06/01/14


Metals (ppm)
IRON				88			10		45			19
CHROMIUM			2			<1		<1			1
LEAD				1			<1		<1			0
COPPER				4			1		2			3
TIN				<1			<1		<1			1
ALUMINUM			19			4		22			4
NICKEL				<1			<1		<1			1
SILVER				<1			<1		<1			0
TITANIUM			20			<1		<1			2
VANADIUM	

Contaminants (ppm)
SILICON				12			8		10			13
SODIUM				18			17		278			52
POTASSIUM			<1			<5		6			2

Additives (ppm)
MAGNESIUM			278			14		118			157
CALCIUM				1990			2044		1792			2063
BARIUM				<1			<1		<1			2
PHOSPHORUS			648			690		627			715
ZINC				755			761		730			817
MOLYBDENUM			69			15		6			70
BORON				58			70		9			56

Contaminants
WATER (%)			<0.05			<0.05		<0.05
Coolant				No			No		No

Physical Tests
Visc (cSt100C)			8.9			8.9		9.0

TBN (mgKOH/g)			2.4			2.6		2.5



2019 Jeep Rubicon Wrangler Unlimited 3.6L V6 [OEM + Factory Fill]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 & Mann filter]
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: meborder] #4019640 02/23/16 01:53 PM
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dustyroads Offline
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I didn't think the Ford mod motors sheared oil that much. I wonder if it's more of a fuel dilution issue. If there's a downside to ALS labs, it's that they don't test for fuel in gasoline engine oil samples. I would try a different lab to get a look at fuel dilution. Blackstone gets criticized for their method, but it still gives some indication of fuel in oil. Not sure why ALS doesn't look at fuel (they do in diesel engine samples).

Those two samples with high aluminum and iron indicate abrasive wear as if they were high in silicon but that isn't bad at all. The only thing that I can figure is there is some rusting going on in the cylinders. I know that sounds crazy but it's as if there's condensation or something causing a slight amount of rust in the cylinders and every time you start the engine (well cold start after a night off) you get some abrasive wear within a cylinder or cylinders. Maybe you have some long times between starts?

The bearing wear looks almost non existent so don't worry about that. If you continued for many, many more miles you might see a little bearing corrosion due to high acidity but it's looking good in those samples. I saw a spike in my truck engines bearing materials when I dropped below a TBN of 1 but you're samples are still showing good base numbers. With three quarts of makeup oil I would expect a higher level but it's still fine.


2013 F150 XLT 5.0 4X4 115k
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: meborder] #4019649 02/23/16 02:03 PM
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I think the bearings are aluminum in these engines - the Al wear IS bearing wear, and it is high.

If you want to stick to 10k intervals, I'd go to a thicker 30-weight or a 40-weight to see if it helps - GC 0W-30; M1 0W-40; or something like T6 5W-40.


2010 Kia Soul 2U - 2.0L I-4, auto; 145k miles.
Castrol GTX HM 5W-30, STP blue bottle; Fram TG 9688.

2009 Pontiac G5 - 2.2 I-4, auto, 121k miles.
Oil/filter TBD
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: addyguy] #4019721 02/23/16 03:09 PM
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You don't think it could be cylinder wear? I would sooner think it's abrasive wear within cylinders but I'm not betting the farm on it. The chromium is another indicator showing a slight amount of ring wear.

Just my thoughts. It's hard for me to think of it as bearing wear.


2013 F150 XLT 5.0 4X4 115k
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: meborder] #4019851 02/23/16 05:13 PM
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I'd say the aluminum wear is from piston skirts, aggravated by cold idling and running in a SD winter. The #'s are a little high, but not crazy IMO. The motor isn't going to wear out next week...or next year. Try a blend at 7.5k OCI and see what it looks like if you're worried. Me, I'd just run SuperTech dino 5W-30 at 7.5k and call it a day. Keep it topped off.


92 Suburban 2500 7.4L 58k M1_0w40 5yr OCI
99 Olds Aurora 4.0L 91K M1_5w30 5yr OCI
13 Dodge Dart 2.0L 30k PP 0w20 OLM OCI
70 Camaro 5.7L 59k
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: dustyroads] #4019865 02/23/16 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted By: dustyroads
I didn't think the Ford mod motors sheared oil that much. I wonder if it's more of a fuel dilution issue. If there's a downside to ALS labs, it's that they don't test for fuel in gasoline engine oil samples. I would try a different lab to get a look at fuel dilution. Blackstone gets criticized for their method, but it still gives some indication of fuel in oil. Not sure why ALS doesn't look at fuel (they do in diesel engine samples).

Those two samples with high aluminum and iron indicate abrasive wear as if they were high in silicon but that isn't bad at all. The only thing that I can figure is there is some rusting going on in the cylinders. I know that sounds crazy but it's as if there's condensation or something causing a slight amount of rust in the cylinders and every time you start the engine (well cold start after a night off) you get some abrasive wear within a cylinder or cylinders. Maybe you have some long times between starts?

The bearing wear looks almost non existent so don't worry about that. If you continued for many, many more miles you might see a little bearing corrosion due to high acidity but it's looking good in those samples. I saw a spike in my truck engines bearing materials when I dropped below a TBN of 1 but you're samples are still showing good base numbers. With three quarts of makeup oil I would expect a higher level but it's still fine.


thanks for the response!

I put on 10k in 5 months, so it doesn't sit much smile and it is always "fully warm" when I shut it down. it is my daily driver and long tripper. but the bulk of the miles this time was driving to work and back. I think there was only one long trip right at the beginning of the OCI.

I'm wondering if some of the wear in the winter isn't because the oil never really gets warm. I don't short trip at all, but I'm thinking that even in my 25 mile drive that the oil is never fully warm.

I'm really confused as to why the FE and AL would be as high as it is. but aside from towing, I think this is probably the worst case scenario for this vehicle.


Too many cars using too many different oils to list in 150 characters.
Re: Castrol Edge(Gold) 5W-30, 10kOCI, '06 Expeditition [Re: 2015_PSD] #4019869 02/23/16 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Is this a Blackstone UOA? Certainly a 10K OCI should be possible with the right oil, but I too, had more wear metals (albeit slightly more) in the winter versus the summer. I added the universal averages (from Blackstone for a Ford Modular) to your chart to make a comparison. Your engine does not "like" Castrol or NAPA (likely Ashland oil). Have you tried any MS5K or M1 oils? They both did very well in my 5.4L, even when towing and in the winter. Modulars are not known to shear oil much, but without the flash point and the fuel readings, it is difficult to tell why the viscosity dropped.

Code:
OIL				Castrol5w30		Trop5w30	NAPA5w20		Universal
				Edge			Artic		Synthetic		Averages
				Gold Bottle		Syn Blend

MILES IN USE			9,980			4,989		6,447			5,500
MILES				149,085			125,086		114,429
SAMPLE TAKEN			01/14/15		10/23/14	06/01/14


Metals (ppm)
IRON				88			10		45			19
CHROMIUM			2			<1		<1			1
LEAD				1			<1		<1			0
COPPER				4			1		2			3
TIN				<1			<1		<1			1
ALUMINUM			19			4		22			4
NICKEL				<1			<1		<1			1
SILVER				<1			<1		<1			0
TITANIUM			20			<1		<1			2
VANADIUM	

Contaminants (ppm)
SILICON				12			8		10			13
SODIUM				18			17		278			52
POTASSIUM			<1			<5		6			2

Additives (ppm)
MAGNESIUM			278			14		118			157
CALCIUM				1990			2044		1792			2063
BARIUM				<1			<1		<1			2
PHOSPHORUS			648			690		627			715
ZINC				755			761		730			817
MOLYBDENUM			69			15		6			70
BORON				58			70		9			56

Contaminants
WATER (%)			<0.05			<0.05		<0.05
Coolant				No			No		No

Physical Tests
Visc (cSt100C)			8.9			8.9		9.0

TBN (mgKOH/g)			2.4			2.6		2.5





thanks for the universal averages.
this was a report from NAPA. I've thought about using blackstone, but for less money I get the TBN from NAPA. I guess it is worth considering.

a little disappointing to think that my truck doesn't appear to like the Castrol.... I've always liked Castrol, but I'm willing to try M1. I was hoping to just confirm that this works fine and not have to run any more UOA's.

wondering if I can find another oil with a similar add=pack as the trop artic.....


Too many cars using too many different oils to list in 150 characters.
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