Ive been using Pennzoil Synchromesh in my Rangers 5 speed which calls for ATF with no problems, I've used it twice in the past 5k miles, changing it at 2k intervals to flush out the original stuff that was in there from 2001. There is almost no metal particles on the drain plug and it shifts good, but in the cold especially in the mornings it is sluggish to shift until I drive for a lil bit and it warms up. While it isnt the recommended fluid, should I keep using it, or shoudl iI go with another fluid such as Redline MTL, or D4, of which ive both heard good about on here. Is it possible that the synchromesh and the MTL, if i decide to use it, is too thick for the M5OD? Synchromesh Cst is 9.3 while Redline MTL is around 10.5
M5OD
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how often should I be changing the synchromesh or the MTL if I decide to use it?
I have the same transmission in my E-150 and use ATF as per the OM. It currently has Mobil 1 ATF in it. I don't have any issues shifting it when it's cold, including sub zero temps. At -35F it was a bit stiff, I had to shift it nice and easy.
IIRC my owners manual calls for changes every 60K miles.
IIRC my owners manual calls for changes every 60K miles.
Is that trans eligible to use Ford's synthetic manual trans fluid? It isn't cheap, like $20 a quart.
I use it now in my NC Miata and it made a real difference, even from Redline's fluid that I had in there before.
Of the top of my head, I don't recall the viscosity but if it's compatible, look into it.
Just a thought.
I use it now in my NC Miata and it made a real difference, even from Redline's fluid that I had in there before.
Of the top of my head, I don't recall the viscosity but if it's compatible, look into it.
Just a thought.
Ed Peters, A Chrysler manual transmission engineer stated something interesting on a Youtube video regarding fluid. Regarding the Neon he said, using ATF instead of the proper fluid was a bean counter move by corporate. I imagine this is also true to Ford and GM if they call for using an ATF in a manual.
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Start the video at 2:30 if you wanna hear something interesting.
skyactiv,I will be sure to watch the video tonight when I get a chance. So youre saying someone at Chrysler purposely spec'd ATF when it should have been something else?
Originally Posted By: zeng
I always cringe when I see OEM manufacturers spec'ing low viscosity ATFs in basic power train components such as a manual gearbox/transfer case ....
To tell you the truth I never gave it much thought until I joined Bitog. Mine has been working fine since 1988 with ATF in it. The only change I made was I switched to Mobil 1 ATF in mine. When I get around to changing out the rear main seal and do a clutch job I'll think about what fluid to try next. I just don't want harder shifting in the cold like I had with my 85 E-150 with the 4 speed stick and gear oil in the trans.
I always cringe when I see OEM manufacturers spec'ing low viscosity ATFs in basic power train components such as a manual gearbox/transfer case ....
To tell you the truth I never gave it much thought until I joined Bitog. Mine has been working fine since 1988 with ATF in it. The only change I made was I switched to Mobil 1 ATF in mine. When I get around to changing out the rear main seal and do a clutch job I'll think about what fluid to try next. I just don't want harder shifting in the cold like I had with my 85 E-150 with the 4 speed stick and gear oil in the trans.
I wasn't even aware that there was a crossover adjustment for the shifter mechanism to reduce synchronizer failures. Now I do.
The engineer stated that M1 High Mileage motor oils (shown was 10w-40 HM) was an ideal lubricant for manual transmissions. In particular he stated that the HM had 1500 ppm Zinc. From the M1 VOA's, I don't think you'll find them over 1,000 ppm on what we use for our passenger cars. Interesting that you don't see many transmission builders recommending a motor oil. I used Valvoline conventional ATF on my last manual trans fluid change. I did consider Mobil 1 ATF but didn't want to risk notchy shifting at lower temps. Maybe next time I go something with a stronger add package, including zinc.
Good video.
Previous Bitog link on using HM motor oil in manual transmissions
The engineer stated that M1 High Mileage motor oils (shown was 10w-40 HM) was an ideal lubricant for manual transmissions. In particular he stated that the HM had 1500 ppm Zinc. From the M1 VOA's, I don't think you'll find them over 1,000 ppm on what we use for our passenger cars. Interesting that you don't see many transmission builders recommending a motor oil. I used Valvoline conventional ATF on my last manual trans fluid change. I did consider Mobil 1 ATF but didn't want to risk notchy shifting at lower temps. Maybe next time I go something with a stronger add package, including zinc.
Good video.
Previous Bitog link on using HM motor oil in manual transmissions
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Start the video at 2:30 if you wanna hear something interesting.
What I note is that he says that ATF is 70% detergents! Then I listened to some more and it got worse.
Does not make any sense. Detergents are about $20 per gallon where synthetic base stocks are closer to $3.00.
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Start the video at 2:30 if you wanna hear something interesting.
What I note is that he says that ATF is 70% detergents! Then I listened to some more and it got worse.
Does not make any sense. Detergents are about $20 per gallon where synthetic base stocks are closer to $3.00.
Originally Posted By: DWC28
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Start the video at 2:30 if you wanna hear something interesting.
What I note is that he says that ATF is 70% detergents! Then I listened to some more and it got worse.
Does not make any sense. Detergents are about $20 per gallon where synthetic base stocks are closer to $3.00.
What doesn't make any sense is the level of misinformation.
A modern ATF is about 90% base oil. An ATF DI package is typically only about 7 or 8% of the total formulation and most of that is dispersant, anti-oxidant, and friction modifier. ATF additive packages typically only contain a very small amount of detergent simply because they don't need it!
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Start the video at 2:30 if you wanna hear something interesting.
What I note is that he says that ATF is 70% detergents! Then I listened to some more and it got worse.
Does not make any sense. Detergents are about $20 per gallon where synthetic base stocks are closer to $3.00.
What doesn't make any sense is the level of misinformation.
A modern ATF is about 90% base oil. An ATF DI package is typically only about 7 or 8% of the total formulation and most of that is dispersant, anti-oxidant, and friction modifier. ATF additive packages typically only contain a very small amount of detergent simply because they don't need it!
I have had two Rangers, both with the M5OD. They both had 250,000+ miles on them when they were sold. The fluid was changed every 50,000 miles with whatever ATF the owner's manual called for. These trucks were used off road and were used to haul a lot of firewood. I wasn't easy on either one. At no point did either truck have any transmission problems.
I think the whole "ATF is too thin" issue may be a bit overblown. I haven't heard of any manual transmission failures, much less any that could be attributed to the type of fluid used. Look at the ZF 6 speed transmissions in the Ford Super Duty trucks - all of them spec Mercon V and many of the trucks are used very heavily in towing applications. I haven't heard of any transmission failures in them, even when coupled to heavily modded/chipped diesel engines.
I think the whole "ATF is too thin" issue may be a bit overblown. I haven't heard of any manual transmission failures, much less any that could be attributed to the type of fluid used. Look at the ZF 6 speed transmissions in the Ford Super Duty trucks - all of them spec Mercon V and many of the trucks are used very heavily in towing applications. I haven't heard of any transmission failures in them, even when coupled to heavily modded/chipped diesel engines.
Detergents also function to change the friction curve of midpoint vs. end point. This has become important to reduce shudder in certain trans. Hope you did not think I meant you did not make any sense. I enjoy your knowledge.
Originally Posted By: DWC28
Detergents also function to change the friction curve of midpoint vs. end point. This has become important to reduce shudder in certain trans. Hope you did not think I meant you did not make any sense. I enjoy your knowledge.
I wasn't pointing at you, I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
It has been known for some time that dispersants can affect the static to dynamic ratio but ATFs generally only contain very small amount of detergent because they don't have to deal with things such as combustion by-products. The thing is that motor oils do contain large amounts of detergent for that very reason, therefore the statements in the video are totally ar-e about!
Detergents also function to change the friction curve of midpoint vs. end point. This has become important to reduce shudder in certain trans. Hope you did not think I meant you did not make any sense. I enjoy your knowledge.
I wasn't pointing at you, I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
It has been known for some time that dispersants can affect the static to dynamic ratio but ATFs generally only contain very small amount of detergent because they don't have to deal with things such as combustion by-products. The thing is that motor oils do contain large amounts of detergent for that very reason, therefore the statements in the video are totally ar-e about!
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: zeng
I always cringe when I see OEM manufacturers spec'ing low viscosity ATFs in basic power train components such as a manual gearbox/transfer case ....
To tell you the truth I never gave it much thought until I joined Bitog. Mine has been working fine since 1988 with ATF in it. The only change I made was I switched to Mobil 1 ATF in mine. When I get around to changing out the rear main seal and do a clutch job I'll think about what fluid to try next. I just don't want harder shifting in the cold like I had with my 85 E-150 with the 4 speed stick and gear oil in the trans.
I put Redline MTL into my Camry, and at -18F it was definitely molasses. The MT90 that was great in summer... boy was I glad to have it out of there!
The thicker oil in summer fixed a syncro issue but once the temps hit freezing it was miserable for several miles--as in, force it into gear until it warmed up some.
Originally Posted By: zeng
I always cringe when I see OEM manufacturers spec'ing low viscosity ATFs in basic power train components such as a manual gearbox/transfer case ....
To tell you the truth I never gave it much thought until I joined Bitog. Mine has been working fine since 1988 with ATF in it. The only change I made was I switched to Mobil 1 ATF in mine. When I get around to changing out the rear main seal and do a clutch job I'll think about what fluid to try next. I just don't want harder shifting in the cold like I had with my 85 E-150 with the 4 speed stick and gear oil in the trans.
I put Redline MTL into my Camry, and at -18F it was definitely molasses. The MT90 that was great in summer... boy was I glad to have it out of there!
The thicker oil in summer fixed a syncro issue but once the temps hit freezing it was miserable for several miles--as in, force it into gear until it warmed up some.
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: zeng
I always cringe when I see OEM manufacturers spec'ing low viscosity ATFs in basic power train components such as a manual gearbox/transfer case ....
To tell you the truth I never gave it much thought until I joined Bitog. Mine has been working fine since 1988 with ATF in it. The only change I made was I switched to Mobil 1 ATF in mine. When I get around to changing out the rear main seal and do a clutch job I'll think about what fluid to try next. I just don't want harder shifting in the cold like I had with my 85 E-150 with the 4 speed stick and gear oil in the trans.
I put Redline MTL into my Camry, and at -18F it was definitely molasses. The MT90 that was great in summer... boy was I glad to have it out of there!
The thicker oil in summer fixed a syncro issue but once the temps hit freezing it was miserable for several miles--as in, force it into gear until it warmed up some.
That's why I've stuck with the mfg spec ATF. Unless it dips waaaaaayyyyy below 0F it works quite well. As someone else mentioned it has been used for years and in HD applications. I got through 28+ years with it I'll probably continue using it.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: zeng
I always cringe when I see OEM manufacturers spec'ing low viscosity ATFs in basic power train components such as a manual gearbox/transfer case ....
To tell you the truth I never gave it much thought until I joined Bitog. Mine has been working fine since 1988 with ATF in it. The only change I made was I switched to Mobil 1 ATF in mine. When I get around to changing out the rear main seal and do a clutch job I'll think about what fluid to try next. I just don't want harder shifting in the cold like I had with my 85 E-150 with the 4 speed stick and gear oil in the trans.
I put Redline MTL into my Camry, and at -18F it was definitely molasses. The MT90 that was great in summer... boy was I glad to have it out of there!
The thicker oil in summer fixed a syncro issue but once the temps hit freezing it was miserable for several miles--as in, force it into gear until it warmed up some.
That's why I've stuck with the mfg spec ATF. Unless it dips waaaaaayyyyy below 0F it works quite well. As someone else mentioned it has been used for years and in HD applications. I got through 28+ years with it I'll probably continue using it.
I had a 1989 F-150 with the M5OD and it used ATF it's entire life and shifted just fine in all temps. However my 2002 F-150 with the same transmission shifted horribly with ATF, especially in the warm to hot temps. It would grind miserably when shifting. I finally used Royal Purple's Synchro Max synthetic manual transmission fluid and it was like night and day difference in shifting. No more grinding when shifting in the warmer weather and it's great even at -7F we had the other day. And it's the same viscosity as ATF. I don't thing these transmissions can take a "thicker" transmission fluid due to the way the gears are lubed.
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