Op next time it's raining go out and out your funnel in a water bottle for 20 seconds and see how much collects. I bet it'll be such a trivial amount!
Water in transmission oil
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Op next time it's raining go out and out your funnel in a water bottle for 20 seconds and see how much collects. I bet it'll be such a trivial amount!
Ok few questions. Would not the moisture just vaporize when the ATF got hot and two, would it not readily evap thru the dipstick. Would engine oil be REPEATABLY be laden with water especially in very cold temps? Clearly it doesn't continue to build up but instead, vaporizes on each warm up.
Finally, if water is in ATF, what is the mechanism to damage?
Finally, if water is in ATF, what is the mechanism to damage?
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Ok few questions. Would not the moisture just vaporize when the ATF got hot and two, would it not readily evap thru the dipstick. Would engine oil be REPEATABLY be laden with water especially in very cold temps? Clearly it doesn't continue to build up but instead, vaporizes on each warm up.
Finally, if water is in ATF, what is the mechanism to damage?
Water intrusion of the ATF results in accelerated oxidation, modification of the COF of the fluid, rusting of sun gear and bearings, degradation of metal inhibitors, and degradation of the anti-wear additive.
Quote:
Would not the moisture just vaporize when the ATF got hot and two, would it not readily evap thru the dipstick.
Since the average AT fluid temp across many transmission environments is 175F, no, it would not since you need to get above 212F to purge the system of any moisture. A high vapor pressure and temp would be needed to dispel any moisture.
Quote:
Would engine oil be REPEATABLY be laden with water especially in very cold temps? Clearly it doesn't continue to build up but instead, vaporizes on each warm up.
An engine is an open system. If the engine gets hot enough, any moisture in the engine would be sucked into the PCV valve system along with any oil vapors, and combusted or converted to minute amounts of steam.
An AT transmission has NO PCV system to draw off vapors.
Ok few questions. Would not the moisture just vaporize when the ATF got hot and two, would it not readily evap thru the dipstick. Would engine oil be REPEATABLY be laden with water especially in very cold temps? Clearly it doesn't continue to build up but instead, vaporizes on each warm up.
Finally, if water is in ATF, what is the mechanism to damage?
Water intrusion of the ATF results in accelerated oxidation, modification of the COF of the fluid, rusting of sun gear and bearings, degradation of metal inhibitors, and degradation of the anti-wear additive.
Quote:
Would not the moisture just vaporize when the ATF got hot and two, would it not readily evap thru the dipstick.
Since the average AT fluid temp across many transmission environments is 175F, no, it would not since you need to get above 212F to purge the system of any moisture. A high vapor pressure and temp would be needed to dispel any moisture.
Quote:
Would engine oil be REPEATABLY be laden with water especially in very cold temps? Clearly it doesn't continue to build up but instead, vaporizes on each warm up.
An engine is an open system. If the engine gets hot enough, any moisture in the engine would be sucked into the PCV valve system along with any oil vapors, and combusted or converted to minute amounts of steam.
An AT transmission has NO PCV system to draw off vapors.
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MolaKule
Staff member
http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthingswork/f/boiling-point-of-water.htm
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch14/melting.php
http://www.britannica.com/science/boiling-point
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/vappre.html
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch14/melting.php
http://www.britannica.com/science/boiling-point
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/vappre.html
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Originally Posted By: brslds
Wouldn't escape through the dipstick tube?
ATs have a vent to atmosphere to accommodate the fluid as it expands with heat. Without the vent, the pressure would push the ATF through the seals.I'm referring to my Camry. Other manufacturers may have a different arrangement.
Wouldn't escape through the dipstick tube?
ATs have a vent to atmosphere to accommodate the fluid as it expands with heat. Without the vent, the pressure would push the ATF through the seals.I'm referring to my Camry. Other manufacturers may have a different arrangement.
Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
ATs have a vent to atmosphere to accommodate the fluid as it expands with heat...
As do mine. Differentials and gearboxes, too.
ATs have a vent to atmosphere to accommodate the fluid as it expands with heat...
As do mine. Differentials and gearboxes, too.
The vent doesn't make any difference because, as MolaKule pointed out, the fluid will not get hot enough to expel the water in that way.
The other point that we were trying to make is that water in the fluid causes degradation way before is is detectable by visual appearance.
I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.
The other point that we were trying to make is that water in the fluid causes degradation way before is is detectable by visual appearance.
I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
Originally Posted By: brslds
Wouldn't escape through the dipstick tube?
ATs have a vent to atmosphere to accommodate the fluid as it expands with heat. Without the vent, the pressure would push the ATF through the seals.I'm referring to my Camry. Other manufacturers may have a different arrangement.
Where is this venting port located?
The only venting port I am aware of is via the dipstick, but again, you need to get to a high temperature to drive off any moisture and the average ATF temp doesn't get high enough to do that.
Quote:
An AT transmission has NO PCV system to draw off vapors.
In an engine, the crankcase environment is slightly below atmospheric pressure in order to suck up moisture vapors BELOW 212F.
An ATF has no such partial vacuum system.
Originally Posted By: WHitewolf
The vent doesn't make any difference because, as MolaKule pointed out, the fluid will not get hot enough to expel the water in that way.
The other point that we were trying to make is that water in the fluid causes degradation way before is is detectable by visual appearance.
I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.
Originally Posted By: brslds
Wouldn't escape through the dipstick tube?
ATs have a vent to atmosphere to accommodate the fluid as it expands with heat. Without the vent, the pressure would push the ATF through the seals.I'm referring to my Camry. Other manufacturers may have a different arrangement.
Where is this venting port located?
The only venting port I am aware of is via the dipstick, but again, you need to get to a high temperature to drive off any moisture and the average ATF temp doesn't get high enough to do that.
Quote:
An AT transmission has NO PCV system to draw off vapors.
In an engine, the crankcase environment is slightly below atmospheric pressure in order to suck up moisture vapors BELOW 212F.
An ATF has no such partial vacuum system.
Originally Posted By: WHitewolf
The vent doesn't make any difference because, as MolaKule pointed out, the fluid will not get hot enough to expel the water in that way.
The other point that we were trying to make is that water in the fluid causes degradation way before is is detectable by visual appearance.
I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
...Where is this venting port located?...
Typically at or toward the top of the transmission casting.
Random google images fyi:
...Where is this venting port located?...
Typically at or toward the top of the transmission casting.
Random google images fyi:
MolaKule
Staff member
On many transmissions this venting port is located on top of the case, but it only vents for high temps when the fluid volume increases, so it is more of an "emergency" vent.
For older cars with loose fitting dipsticks and little if any rubber seals, most venting would be via the dipstick tube.
Again, the point is: you need to get to a high temperature to drive off any moisture and the average ATF temp doesn't get high enough to do that, and damage can be done with water intrusion.
Added: Thanks splinter, looks like we posted almost simultaneously.
For older cars with loose fitting dipsticks and little if any rubber seals, most venting would be via the dipstick tube.
Again, the point is: you need to get to a high temperature to drive off any moisture and the average ATF temp doesn't get high enough to do that, and damage can be done with water intrusion.
Added: Thanks splinter, looks like we posted almost simultaneously.
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
..I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
...The only venting port I am aware of is via the dipstick...
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
On many transmissions this venting port is located on top of the case...
Now you know.
..I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
...The only venting port I am aware of is via the dipstick...
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
On many transmissions this venting port is located on top of the case...
Now you know.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: splinter
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
..I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
...The only venting port I am aware of is via the dipstick...
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
On many transmissions this venting port is located on top of the case...
Now you know.
Yep, it was a rhetorical question, just so you know.
Many posters seemed to have missed the main point: ATF temps cannot reach a high enough temp expel water.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
..I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
...The only venting port I am aware of is via the dipstick...
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
On many transmissions this venting port is located on top of the case...
Now you know.
Yep, it was a rhetorical question, just so you know.
Many posters seemed to have missed the main point: ATF temps cannot reach a high enough temp expel water.
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we still dont know exactly how much water entered this unit.
after seeing a c6 and a 700r4 that had been run with water in the oil and seeing the frictions fall off the steels due to the adhesive being destroyed by water i would do a couple pan drops/cooler line exchanges followed by a new filter on the last drop/exchange.seeing the damage in these and knowing that a soft parts set,frictions,and steels for either cost more than several cases of atf at sams club its a no brainer.
after seeing a c6 and a 700r4 that had been run with water in the oil and seeing the frictions fall off the steels due to the adhesive being destroyed by water i would do a couple pan drops/cooler line exchanges followed by a new filter on the last drop/exchange.seeing the damage in these and knowing that a soft parts set,frictions,and steels for either cost more than several cases of atf at sams club its a no brainer.
Originally Posted By: splinter
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
..I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
...The only venting port I am aware of is via the dipstick...
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
On many transmissions this venting port is located on top of the case...
Now you know.
Splinter,
how's the 'nice' feelings interacting with those 'defending the indefensibles' ............ from spinning unconditional and outright condemnation of oils ........ then... spinning degradation of oils ........ then..... spinning on boiling points ............ as though liquids cannot vaporize without 'boiling' ........ and then..... spinning on absence of vent ports in transmission casings as brought up by you and HosteenJorje ...... then ..... then ...and on and on and on and on .............. so that everybody here is Distracted from the real issues OP is dealing with!
It appears most of us here , despite of being spinned ..... and spinned... and spinned , managed to discern who is dishing out 'disturbing rubbish' in this thread.... .....
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
..I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
...The only venting port I am aware of is via the dipstick...
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
On many transmissions this venting port is located on top of the case...
Now you know.
Splinter,
how's the 'nice' feelings interacting with those 'defending the indefensibles' ............ from spinning unconditional and outright condemnation of oils ........ then... spinning degradation of oils ........ then..... spinning on boiling points ............ as though liquids cannot vaporize without 'boiling' ........ and then..... spinning on absence of vent ports in transmission casings as brought up by you and HosteenJorje ...... then ..... then ...and on and on and on and on .............. so that everybody here is Distracted from the real issues OP is dealing with!
It appears most of us here , despite of being spinned ..... and spinned... and spinned , managed to discern who is dishing out 'disturbing rubbish' in this thread.... .....
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MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: kc8adu
we still dont know exactly how much water entered this unit.
after seeing a c6 and a 700r4 that had been run with water in the oil and seeing the frictions fall off the steels due to the adhesive being destroyed by water i would do a couple pan drops/cooler line exchanges followed by a new filter on the last drop/exchange.seeing the damage in these and knowing that a soft parts set,frictions,and steels for either cost more than several cases of atf at sams club its a no brainer.
There you go. Experience from one who has been there and has seen the damage.
The only spinning here
is from those internet sheeples who are confused about what happens to the chemistry of an ATF and what happens to the internals of an AT when you add water.
Quote:
as though liquids cannot vaporize without 'boiling
http://www.chem4kids.com/files/matter_changes.html
We'll just have to let them drown in their own ignorance.
Otherwise,
Merry Christmas to all.
we still dont know exactly how much water entered this unit.
after seeing a c6 and a 700r4 that had been run with water in the oil and seeing the frictions fall off the steels due to the adhesive being destroyed by water i would do a couple pan drops/cooler line exchanges followed by a new filter on the last drop/exchange.seeing the damage in these and knowing that a soft parts set,frictions,and steels for either cost more than several cases of atf at sams club its a no brainer.
The only spinning here
Quote:
as though liquids cannot vaporize without 'boiling
http://www.chem4kids.com/files/matter_changes.html
We'll just have to let them drown in their own ignorance.
Otherwise,
Merry Christmas to all.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Ok few questions. Would not the moisture just vaporize when the ATF got hot and two, would it not readily evap thru the dipstick. Would engine oil be REPEATABLY be laden with water especially in very cold temps? Clearly it doesn't continue to build up but instead, vaporizes on each warm up.
Finally, if water is in ATF, what is the mechanism to damage?
a )Yes, moisture would vaporize when the ATF (or any other fluids for that matter) got warm or hot .It would readily evaporate thru vents and 'loosened' dipstick.
IIRC, it's the vapor pressure differentials of the two mediums (i.e vapor pressure of ATF fluids less vapor pressure of air at prevailing temperatures ) that gives rise to fluid vaporizations phenomenon .
Temperatures affects only rates of vaporizations , not causing vaporizations per se .............
After rains, the pools of water puddles in front of one's house/garage vaporises under prevailing ambient temperatures . Wait ... did anybody suggests water puddles vaporise only in the tropical climate of my country, but not vaporises in temperate ambients of US/Canada/Europe ?
Btw, my ambients here is NOT 100*C .................
b )Engine crankcase is under positive pressure at all times of operation .... and purges vapors and fumes within crankcase chamber out of it ............... through 'blow by' in older engines or pcv if equipped.
You don't need negative pressure to 'suck' the vapors and ....... OMG.
Do note however that engine crankcase receives newly created H2O from combustion process ....
Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
Originally Posted By: brslds
Wouldn't escape through the dipstick tube?
ATs have a vent to atmosphere to accommodate the fluid as it expands with heat. Without the vent, the pressure would push the ATF through the seals.I'm referring to my Camry. Other manufacturers may have a different arrangement.
Lubricating systems on automobiles are designed and built as i) circulating systems comprising circulating pumps like in engines, or ii) oil-bath systems like in differentials, transaxles ,manual/automatic transmissions etc, or iii) greasing systems etc.
The common characteristic among the varying lubricating chambers above is : there are NOT air-tight chambers , though there may be some who argue otherwise ..... as always.
So HosteenJorje , you are absolutely right in your assessments above.
Originally Posted By: BlackBeard
Op next time it's raining go out and out your funnel in a water bottle for 20 seconds and see how much collects. I bet it'll be such a trivial amount!
It's really a trivial amount.
One teaspoon of 5 ml contributes about 600 ppm in 8.3 litre chamber.
I would hazard a guess that typically, an ATF has a saturation point of dissolved water at operating temperatures up to 2000-3000 ppm depending on 'age' and formulations of oils.
And we have Vice President of Lubrication Engineers, Inc making efforts on emulsified oils and oils containing free water ........... which are much more severe in relation to dissolved water.
Ok few questions. Would not the moisture just vaporize when the ATF got hot and two, would it not readily evap thru the dipstick. Would engine oil be REPEATABLY be laden with water especially in very cold temps? Clearly it doesn't continue to build up but instead, vaporizes on each warm up.
Finally, if water is in ATF, what is the mechanism to damage?
a )Yes, moisture would vaporize when the ATF (or any other fluids for that matter) got warm or hot .It would readily evaporate thru vents and 'loosened' dipstick.
IIRC, it's the vapor pressure differentials of the two mediums (i.e vapor pressure of ATF fluids less vapor pressure of air at prevailing temperatures ) that gives rise to fluid vaporizations phenomenon .
Temperatures affects only rates of vaporizations , not causing vaporizations per se .............
After rains, the pools of water puddles in front of one's house/garage vaporises under prevailing ambient temperatures . Wait ... did anybody suggests water puddles vaporise only in the tropical climate of my country, but not vaporises in temperate ambients of US/Canada/Europe ?
Btw, my ambients here is NOT 100*C .................
b )Engine crankcase is under positive pressure at all times of operation .... and purges vapors and fumes within crankcase chamber out of it ............... through 'blow by' in older engines or pcv if equipped.
You don't need negative pressure to 'suck' the vapors and ....... OMG.
Do note however that engine crankcase receives newly created H2O from combustion process ....
Originally Posted By: HosteenJorje
Originally Posted By: brslds
Wouldn't escape through the dipstick tube?
ATs have a vent to atmosphere to accommodate the fluid as it expands with heat. Without the vent, the pressure would push the ATF through the seals.I'm referring to my Camry. Other manufacturers may have a different arrangement.
Lubricating systems on automobiles are designed and built as i) circulating systems comprising circulating pumps like in engines, or ii) oil-bath systems like in differentials, transaxles ,manual/automatic transmissions etc, or iii) greasing systems etc.
The common characteristic among the varying lubricating chambers above is : there are NOT air-tight chambers , though there may be some who argue otherwise ..... as always.
So HosteenJorje , you are absolutely right in your assessments above.
Originally Posted By: BlackBeard
Op next time it's raining go out and out your funnel in a water bottle for 20 seconds and see how much collects. I bet it'll be such a trivial amount!
It's really a trivial amount.
One teaspoon of 5 ml contributes about 600 ppm in 8.3 litre chamber.
I would hazard a guess that typically, an ATF has a saturation point of dissolved water at operating temperatures up to 2000-3000 ppm depending on 'age' and formulations of oils.
And we have Vice President of Lubrication Engineers, Inc making efforts on emulsified oils and oils containing free water ........... which are much more severe in relation to dissolved water.
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Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
The vent doesn't make any difference because, as MolaKule pointed out, the fluid will not get hot enough to expel the water in that way.
The other point that we were trying to make is that water in the fluid causes degradation way before is is detectable by visual appearance.
I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.
well if I leave spilled water on my counter top overnight, in the morning it is gone. And last I looked, my kitchen is only 70F over night. If an automatic has a vent, the moisture will come out. Now lets see the spin from the spin doctors...
[Since the average AT fluid temp across many transmission environments is 175F, no, it would not since you need to get above 212F to purge the system of any moisture. A high vapor pressure and temp would be needed to dispel any moisture.]
this paragraph show true ignorance of the physics of water evaporation if nothing else.
The vent doesn't make any difference because, as MolaKule pointed out, the fluid will not get hot enough to expel the water in that way.
The other point that we were trying to make is that water in the fluid causes degradation way before is is detectable by visual appearance.
I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.
well if I leave spilled water on my counter top overnight, in the morning it is gone. And last I looked, my kitchen is only 70F over night. If an automatic has a vent, the moisture will come out. Now lets see the spin from the spin doctors...
[Since the average AT fluid temp across many transmission environments is 175F, no, it would not since you need to get above 212F to purge the system of any moisture. A high vapor pressure and temp would be needed to dispel any moisture.]
this paragraph show true ignorance of the physics of water evaporation if nothing else.
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