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Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution #3852486
09/13/15 10:53 AM
09/13/15 10:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,479
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline OP
DeepFriar  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,479
Georgia
I hope this is the right area to bring this to the fore. If not just let me know. I conclude with a short article on the two stroke engines operation.



With the discussion of used oil in the PCMO list I began looking at the sources and uses of "bunker oil", the fuel used in those massive diesels that drive the large ocean going ships that bring us 80% of our manufactured goods (and half our oil) from overseas.

The information I find beggars belief. While we worry about low SAPS, Mid SAPS, etc. Just 16 major ships emit as much sulphur in one year as ALL THE CARS ON EARTH. And there is a fleet of over 1000 of those ships according to some of the articles. This is so massive I have trouble believing it is anywhere near true and yet the data looks pretty solid. And there is some effort to clean it up but it won't bear fruit till the 2020's apparently.

Has it been discussed here before? Is this class of fuel also used in oil fired power plants around the world? How about all the small plants in smaller countries? Here we are, dutifully carrying our oil in for "recycling" and part of it is emitting hideous amounts of pollution.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/11/21/article-1229857-074F8F57000005DC-715_468x186.jpg

"For 31 years, the IMO has operated a policy agreed by the 169 governments that make up the organisation which allows most ships to burn bunker fuel.

Christian Eyde Moller, boss of the DK shipping company in Rotterdam, recently described this as just waste oil, basically what is left over after all the cleaner fuels have been extracted from crude oil. Its tar, the same as asphalt. Its the cheapest and dirtiest fuel in the world.

Bunker fuel is also thick with sulphur. IMO rules allow ships to burn fuel containing up to 4.5 per cent sulphur. That is 4,500 times more than is allowed in car fuel in
the European Union. The sulphur comes out of ship funnels as tiny particles, and it is these that get deep into lungs.

Thanks to the IMOs rules, the largest ships can each emit as much as 5,000 tons of sulphur in a year the same as 50million typical cars, each emitting an average of 100 grams of sulphur a year.

With an estimated 800million cars driving around the planet, that means 16 super-ships can emit as much sulphur as the world fleet of cars."


http://www.industrytap.com/worlds-15-big...-the-world/8182

"It sounds serious, but how bad could it be? Staggeringly, if a report by the UKs Guardian newspaper is to be believed. According to their story, just one of the worlds largest container ships can emit about as much pollution as 50 million cars. Further, the 15 largest ships in the world emit as much nitrogen oxide and sulphur oxide as the worlds 760 million cars."


http://mh-mechanicalengineering.blogspot.com/2012/06/two-stroke.html

Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: DeepFriar] #3852569
09/13/15 12:28 PM
09/13/15 12:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,024
Chicago, IL
Brybo86 Offline
Brybo86  Offline

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 3,024
Chicago, IL
great idea lets pass a law that the ship needs to put out the same exact emissions as a Prius.

Lining the pockets of the "carbon credit" guys who by the way are all driving high end sports cars... go figure


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Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: DeepFriar] #3852572
09/13/15 12:29 PM
09/13/15 12:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 13,070
Canyon County Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 13,070
Canyon County Idaho
It makes me wonder how much pollution volcanoes emit.


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Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: DeepFriar] #3852682
09/13/15 02:20 PM
09/13/15 02:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,408
CA
raytseng Offline
raytseng  Offline

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,408
CA
There is some hope that with a large ship they can at least burn it efficiently. Where else are you going to use bunker fuel which is the leftovers from refining.

You may think convert the bunker fuel to burn cleaner. But what about all the energy required to create the cleaner fuel. Overall you may have less sulfur but way more overall carbon and energy is needed to create the low sulfur fuel so its an environmental wash.

Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: DeepFriar] #3852693
09/13/15 02:27 PM
09/13/15 02:27 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,287
NY
Benito Offline
Benito  Offline

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,287
NY
This is exactly the reason why pollution / emission causing activity should be taxed rather than having mandates that target various aspects of environmental concern eg CAFE.

Taxing activities based on how much pollution / emissions they cause would enable the market to decide on what pollutes less. By extension this would also apply to imports including those from China which then helps create a more level playing field.


You may not control all the events that happen to you, but you can decide not to be reduced by them. - Maya Angelou
Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: DeepFriar] #3852741
09/13/15 03:04 PM
09/13/15 03:04 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 9,560
Boston, MA
HerrStig Offline
HerrStig  Offline

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 9,560
Boston, MA
Tax tax tax. The end user pays the tax. Even if it's a phony "global warming" tax. In the end it's income redistribution. Call it that, don't weasel around it.

Last edited by HerrStig; 09/13/15 03:05 PM.
Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: DeepFriar] #3852744
09/13/15 03:06 PM
09/13/15 03:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,173
UT
BHopkins Offline
BHopkins  Offline

Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,173
UT
Why can't they put scrubbers on the exhaust of large ocean going ships, similar to what is used on electrical plant exhaust stacks?


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Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: DeepFriar] #3852790
09/13/15 03:22 PM
09/13/15 03:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,288
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,288
'Stralia
This has been kicking for 5/6 years here.

It's absolutely ludicrous, and clearly legislated by people who have not even the slightest concept of what the issue IS let alone if it needs fixing.

Green group (have seen this argument on the idjit box) comes up with an argument that "all the cars in the city need catalytic converters and Ultra Low Sulfur Fuel, how can this gross polluting ship (insert sly reference to the socioeconomics of the people boarding the ship) sail right into the middle of our city without these protections ?"

Media grabs it, because they can beat it.

Government mandates something stupid.

Same people then have their win, and move onto SUVs in urban areas, charcoal grills, wood heating, coal mining.

Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: DeepFriar] #3852799
09/13/15 03:29 PM
09/13/15 03:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,495
Northern Ontario, Canada
Danno Offline
Danno  Offline

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Posts: 2,495
Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: DeepFriar

With the discussion of used oil in the PCMO list I began looking at the sources and uses of "bunker oil", the fuel used in those massive diesels that drive the large ocean going ships that bring us 80% of our manufactured goods (and half our oil) from overseas.


You missed the floating hotels called cruise ships that burn enormous amounts of bunker fuel - - 500,000 gallons per cruise iirc.
Main reason I have not and will not go on a cruise.
Pretty sure most passengers are clueless and don't care - but will drive a Prius or Tesla to save the environment.
Can't make this stuff up.


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Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: DeepFriar] #3852826
09/13/15 03:50 PM
09/13/15 03:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,224
Port Orange, Florida
Panzerman Offline
Panzerman  Offline

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Posts: 4,224
Port Orange, Florida
Your absolutely correct. I don't care about the fuel mileage of a cruise ship. For all you tax the bad guys, like it really effects them. I pay the extra for my cruise ticket. You pay extra for goods. The profit margin doesn't change.



2006 Dodge Ram 2500 Hemi 4x4
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Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: DeepFriar] #3852870
09/13/15 04:27 PM
09/13/15 04:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,146
Central NY
Miller88 Offline
Miller88  Offline

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Posts: 13,146
Central NY
This makes me laugh. A few years ago I was listening to NPR and they interviewed some hippy dippy person who said ships were too polluting and that we should be air freighting everything


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Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: Shannow] #3853050
09/13/15 07:20 PM
09/13/15 07:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,479
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline OP
DeepFriar  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,479
Georgia
Originally Posted By: Shannow


Media grabs it, because they can beat it.



I guess that's the part that got me most - Media does NOT grab it and hold on to it. It only comes up sporadically at best (apparently beginning with either an article in The Guardian or The Daily Mirror in 2009). Where is that red meat attitude that the media show to the car manufacturers or to the local steel plant (so that it moves to Korea or wherever) or NIMBY project? If those ships had "Audi" on them 60 minutes would be doing the story six times a year, congress would be investigating, etc. I just find it very odd that this is not coming at us from every media outlet in Christendom. I'm guessing that it is because it would make the fight against automotive and other pollution seem less urgent to the audiences of those who write the news. In other words, hey, it may be true but it doesn't help, and indeed may hurt, our pet projects.

Last edited by DeepFriar; 09/13/15 07:22 PM.
Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: DeepFriar] #3853071
09/13/15 07:47 PM
09/13/15 07:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,020
New Zealand
Kiwi_ME Offline
Kiwi_ME  Offline

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,020
New Zealand
The actual 2009 daily mail article is here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-16-ships-create-pollution-cars-world.html

It's an absurd inequity and has to be resolved. But I would imagine the particulate pollution effects are localized, hence, from the 2013 article:

The good news is that pressure is building from various governments around the world, including the United States, which just recently introduced legislation to keep these ships at least 230 miles away from U.S. coastlines.

But the long-term costs of CO2 contribution have to be rolled in as well and perhaps that will have the benefit of bringing some manufacturing back home.

Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: DeepFriar] #3853076
09/13/15 07:52 PM
09/13/15 07:52 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,479
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline OP
DeepFriar  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,479
Georgia
How do you unload a container ship 230 miles out to sea I wonder?

Re: Used Oil - Large Ship Air Pollution [Re: Kiwi_ME] #3853095
09/13/15 08:09 PM
09/13/15 08:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,479
Georgia
DeepFriar Offline OP
DeepFriar  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,479
Georgia
Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME


But the long-term costs of CO2 contribution have to be rolled in as well and perhaps that will have the benefit of bringing some manufacturing back home.


Now that is an interesting thought. But it occurs to me also that this is a different kind of NIMBY as well. "As long as it is not in my backyard I don't care", sort of a response. This is how they have gotten away with it up until now - mostly out of sight, out of mind. But these levels of pollution really do have a massive effect overall. I'm no tree hugger but this level of filth needs continual, forceful mediation.

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