Viscosity Index Improvers are not bad.

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I've been reading lots of posts recently about Viscosity Index Improvers (also called Viscosity Modifiers) and there is an idea perpetuated (and that is often repeated) that needs correcting:

Oils with little to no Viscosity Modifiers are not better than those that do have them. Neither can you compare oil performance based on how much or how little VM they have.

In fact, there are very few (if any) engine oils that do not contain some kind of viscosity modifier. The reason for this: it is next to impossible to meet the current viscosity profiles in the J300 without them. Unfortunately contrary to common belief - Group III synthetics, PAO's and esters all have excellent viscosity performance relative to temperature changes - but they almost always require some kind of VM to enable the non-newtonion viscosity performance required by todays engines.

So why do VM's continue to get such a bad wrap? It stems from a misunderstanding of what a VM is, how it operates and what types are being used. A long time ago VM's were simple polymers which could alter to the viscosity-temperature relationship of monograde oils. This is how multi-grade oils were born. However, in today's market VM's are much more complex than that - just look at this list:

Types and typical usages of VMs include:
  • Polyisobutylene (PIB) was the predominant VM for engine oil 40 to 50 years ago. PIBs are still used in gear oils due to their outstanding load carrying characteristics. PIBs have been replaced by Olefin Copolymers (OCP) in engine oils due to their superior cost effectiveness and performance.
  • Polymethacrylate (PMA) polymers contain alkyl side chains that interfere with the formation of wax crystals in the oil, providing excellent low-temperature properties. PMAs are used in super fuel economy engine oils, gear oil and transmissions fluid formulations. Generally, they have a higher cost than OCPs.
  • Olefin Copolymers (OCP) see extensive use in engine oils due to their low cost and satisfactory engine performance. Many OCPs are on the market, differing in molecular weight and the ratio of ethylene to propylene content. OCPs are the dominate polymer used for viscosity modifiers in engine oils.
  • Styrene Maleic Anhydride Ester Copolymers (Styrene Esters) are multi-functional VMs. A combination of various alkyl groups provides excellent low-temperature properties. Typical usages for Styrene Esters are fuel efficient engine oils, automatic transmission fluids, and in pour point depressants. Generally, they also carry a higher cost than OCPs.
  • Hydrogenated Styrene-Diene Copolymers (SBR) are characterized by fuel economy benefits, good low-temperature properties, and superior deposit control performance compared to most other polymers.Hydrogenated Radial Polyisoprene polymers have good shear stability at relatively low treatment rates compared to some other types of VMs. Their low-temperature properties are similar to OCP.


As you can see there are many types of VM - each with a different purpose, treat rate and function. In many cases the VM imparts multiple advantages that go above and beyond just fluid thickening and selecting the right VM can be critical to the success of a fluid protecting engine parts.

All engine oil manufacturers use VM's in their formulas. And depending on the base oil mix and desired SAE grade there are different treat rates ranging from 6%-15%. Less VM does not necessarily mean better. Usually the formula is optimized to meet the required SAE J300 grade and support the base oils which the marketer has chosen to use. Molecules of different shapes, patterns and lengths are all chosen to suit the performance requirements of the oil. The treat rate also changes based on what viscosity grade and base oils are used.

For example take this chart recently posted by Shannow (sourced from XOM Chemical):
Mobil%20Viscosity%20Mix.jpg


As you look across the 0W grades notice that the Heavier weighted oils 0W30, 0W40 each have a higher concentration of the lightest base oil than the 0W20. Also notice that the concentration of VM also increases. This is also true of the 5W30 vs 5W40

Why would that be? Logically it makes more sense to use base oils that closer to the final viscosity grade right? Actually the answer is the opposite. In order to meet the viscosity performance profile a marriage between a high quality VM and base oils is the answer. Also note that all of the base oils used are much lighter than the minimum requirements to meet the required grade so it is basically impossible to meet the current SAE grade without the use of some kind of VM.

So how do companies get away with saying they little to no VM in an attempt to woo you to their products? Well, most of these companies are referring to PIBs and short chain OCP's which can be replaced by other polymers which much more shear-stable. Some companies use PMA's and Styrene Esters, which very different than traditional OCP's. XOM Chemical also produces mPAO's which are sometimes used as VM's.

For more information read http://www.pceo.com/articles/viscosity-modifier-four-part-article-series
(this has been posted before)

As you can see, VII's are much more complex than we often think, so if you don't know what you are talking about it can be easy to think that eliminating them or using oils that aren't supposed to have any would be better. This just isn't true and I doubt you will find an oil marketer anywhere that will give you real specifics about the type and concentration of their VM's in their formulas.
 
Quote:
Oils with little to no Viscosity Modifiers are not better than those that do have them. Neither can you compare oil performance based on how much or how little VM they have.
Where did you address this? Are there any tests comparing oils with high amounts vs low amounts in suitable climates(not in Siberia)?

I've never seen anyone present evidence of why someone is a moderate/hot climate would benefit from such things. My 10W-30 was likely thinner this morning than some folk's, in cooler regions, TGMO 0W-20.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: hatt
Quote:
Oils with little to no Viscosity Modifiers are not better than those that do have them. Neither can you compare oil performance based on how much or how little VM they have.
Where did you address this? Are there any tests comparing oils with high amounts vs low amounts in suitable climates(not in Siberia)?

I've never seen anyone present evidence of why someone is a moderate/hot climate would benefit from such things. My 10W-30 was likely thinner this morning than some folk's, in cooler regions, TGMO 0W-20.


Firstly - my point is that members who think their oil has little or no VM's (and therefore must be better) may be surprised to learn what the real ratios are. For example odds are your 10W30 has a higher concentration of VM's than a 0W20.

Second - VM's contribute much more than just thickening... ie "VMs can be used to improve efficiency, cleanliness and low temperature performance of lubricating oils, all the while providing durability and protecting equipment from severe wear." (quote from the PCEO.com link).

Third - different kinds of VM's have different treat rates. For example in the above "Hydrogenated Radial Polyisoprene polymers have good shear stability at relatively low treatment rates compared to some other types of VMs. Their low-temperature properties are similar to OCP." So comparing how much VM or VII might have very little to do with the actual performance of the VM.

So as above. Saying that an oil with little to no viscosity modifiers is better than one without is simply incorrect.
 
Complaints over the years about VIIs have mostly been centered around the chemicals breaking down a bit over the oil change interval, leaving the oil with less VI on the back half of the interval. So if you can use less VII, then your oil should maintain the correct in-grade viscosity longer. Of course oxidation increases viscosity, and fuel dilution reduces viscosity, but loss of VII can also change viscosity curves too.
 
Originally Posted By: ExMachina
So if you can use less VII, then your oil should maintain the correct in-grade viscosity longer.


This is not true. Less quantity of a VII that is susceptible to breakdown will not solve the issue described. Changing to a more stable VM will. This is why the issue gets confused. The old PIBs and short chain OCPs that break down are used very seldom in today's PCMO.

The quantity of VM used has more to do with meeting the required viscosity profile when combined with the marketers' base oil mix.

Originally Posted By: ExMachina
Of course oxidation increases viscosity, and fuel dilution reduces viscosity, but loss of VII can also change viscosity curves too.


All true. Hopefully though loss of VII is minimized by matching the right type to the blend and application.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
So my 8v-71 DD in my Ladder Truck will do fine on 5w40 CJ instead of SAE40 CF-2 ?
smile.gif

0w-20 because all oils are to thick on start up ,, I read that somewhere.
 
If engine oils published sonic shear test results in their pds, ASTM D 5621, would a consumer be better informed as to the quality of the product?
 
Probably - because some data would be better than none. However there are several types of shear tests and the different kinds of VM respond in different ways. SO putting out a blanket test without knowing some details of the type of VM and how it responds to the test would possibly create an advantage or disadvantage for the differing VM's. (ASTM 5621 is based around hydraulic oils which typically use different types of VM's than engine oils)
 
I tried unsuccessfully twice to jump start the SAE 16 grade topic, with no group response.
The last, I posted this link www.evonik.com as one example of where VII/VM chemistry is headed.
Any additional information is always appreciated so we can become better educated and enjoy informed opinions.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Originally Posted By: used_0il
I tried unsuccessfully twice to jump start the SAE 16 grade topic, with no group response.
The last, I posted this link www.evonik.com as one example of where VII/VM chemistry is headed.
Any additional information is always appreciated so we can become better educated and enjoy informed opinions.


Well Evonik is definitely a big player in the VM game, as are Lubrizol, Afton and Infineum. (Although I think that Evonik and Lubrizol have more options in terms of types of VMs - but I could be wrong).
 
Originally Posted By: Solarent
As you look across the 0W grades notice that the Heavier weighted oils 0W30, 0W40 each have a higher concentration of the lightest base oil than the 0W20. Also notice that the concentration of VM also increases. This is also true of the 5W30 vs 5W40

Why would that be? Logically it makes more sense to use base oils that closer to the final viscosity grade right? Actually the answer is the opposite. In order to meet the viscosity performance profile a marriage between a high quality VM and base oils is the answer. Also note that all of the base oils used are much lighter than the minimum requirements to meet the required grade so it is basically impossible to meet the current SAE grade without the use of some kind of VM.


I'll stick to VII since that's the standard BITOG term.

Aren't you just making the point of the other thread? If the heavier graded oils use lighter base stocks, then they are more susceptible to high NOACK.

And if they have high NOACK and lots of VII additives, we are more likely to see deposits. Thus the 10w-40 debacle in days of old.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
So my 8v-71 DD in my Ladder Truck will do fine on 5w40 CJ instead of SAE40 CF-2 ?
smile.gif



$12.47/gallon on the shelf of your local Walmart:

OaeYQcn.png
 
Solarent, good info.

But looking at the history of J300, it was the (early) VMs that were leading to problems, which is why the high shear visometry was explored, and lead the the HTHS being included into J300.

Early versions had 0W, 5W, and 10W with the same minimum HTHS of the 30s, which sort of defeated the concept of a 40 multigrade...the end user would probably have been better off with a 10W30 and 3 HTHS than a 10W40 with a 3 HTHS.

Better VMs, and that has been fixed, and the 40 min HTHS is now where it should be, a significant increase over the 30 mins.

My commentary, not against VIIs is that there are two memes in BITOG that have evolved.
* Higher Viscosity Index is always better;
* 0W is always better.

I'm just trying to bring to light the compromises that are made to achieve both of those, and say that they are not necessarily better, depending on the question that's being asked of the oil.

e.g. TGMO with it's grade minimum HTHS, and stratospheric VI implies that the KV values are higher than they need to be for a given amount of engine protection. (*)

My current comfort go to is 5W30 A3/B4, which I have a wide range available in Oz...personally as even 20W isn't taxed in my ambient, I think that's a better answer than a 0W40 of similar price range.
 
(*) and it could mean that I'm looking in the wrong direction.

To that end, do you have any data on how VMs work on the High Shear "Viscosity Index" ?

BY that I mean that the VI is based on the KV40/KV100. However, above 10^6 shear rate, they are entering their second Newtonian period, when the polymer alignment is such that the viscosity is reduced to another "stable point", through temporary shear.

If an HTHS40 and HTHS100 are used, what's the slope of the Viscosity Index that is formed compared to the VI in kinematic terms ?

I've only found a couple of products that give HTHS 150 and HTHS 100, and it appears from one or two data points that a high shear VI is probably closer to the VI of the bases than the finished oil.

BUT if the VMs DO give a matching VI in the High Shear range, then TGMO makes much more sense.
 
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: Solarent
As you look across the 0W grades notice that the Heavier weighted oils 0W30, 0W40 each have a higher concentration of the lightest base oil than the 0W20. Also notice that the concentration of VM also increases. This is also true of the 5W30 vs 5W40

Why would that be? Logically it makes more sense to use base oils that closer to the final viscosity grade right? Actually the answer is the opposite. In order to meet the viscosity performance profile a marriage between a high quality VM and base oils is the answer. Also note that all of the base oils used are much lighter than the minimum requirements to meet the required grade so it is basically impossible to meet the current SAE grade without the use of some kind of VM.


I'll stick to VII since that's the standard BITOG term.

Aren't you just making the point of the other thread? If the heavier graded oils use lighter base stocks, then they are more susceptible to high NOACK.

And if they have high NOACK and lots of VII additives, we are more likely to see deposits. Thus the 10w-40 debacle in days of old.


But there is a NOACK limit on the Euro oils and subsequently a lot of them have MUCH lower NOACK volatility than non-Euro PCMO's with a narrower visc range. There are many, MANY examples of oils with much higher volatility than the 8.8% of M1 0w-40
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Solarent


Firstly - my point is that members who think their oil has little or no VM's (and therefore must be better) may be surprised to learn what the real ratios are. For example odds are your 10W30 has a higher concentration of VM's than a 0W20.

Second - VM's contribute much more than just thickening... ie "VMs can be used to improve efficiency, cleanliness and low temperature performance of lubricating oils, all the while providing durability and protecting equipment from severe wear." (quote from the PCEO.com link).

Third - different kinds of VM's have different treat rates. For example in the above "Hydrogenated Radial Polyisoprene polymers have good shear stability at relatively low treatment rates compared to some other types of VMs. Their low-temperature properties are similar to OCP." So comparing how much VM or VII might have very little to do with the actual performance of the VM.

So as above. Saying that an oil with little to no viscosity modifiers is better than one without is simply incorrect.
You think it has a lot of VII with the 4.7 Noack?
 
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