Outhink the manufacturer.

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Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: hatt
You have to look no further that the 5.0 in Mustangs to know manufacturer requirements contain shenanigans.


Very good point. What bone head over at ford decided to spec 5w20 only for a5.0 stang. Then some trusting Joe takes it to the track and "Pow"!!!
Lol ok maybe the whole car doesn't blow up but...


I think the shenanigans reference was more in regards to the same engine spec'ing 5w-20 or 5w-50 depending on whether you got the "Track Pack" on your GT or not
smile.gif
 
Honestly I have yet to see people here "out thinking" the engineers as it has been put in this thread several times.

1.) Cars seem to live on their recommended oil viscosity as well as a few grades higher just fine. No engineering required.. just common sense. (Some manufactures say it is OKAY to run 5w-20 through 20w-50 depending on where the car will be ran, outside temperatures and what is available. A car's OM in the US will say to run one thing while something with the same engine in Europe or Australia will say to run something different. It is all about achieving peak MPG folks.

2.) I have yet to see anyone on BITOG recommend back-spec'ing their engine. A 10w30 to a 5w20 for example in say the Jeep 4.0 engine. The only exception being that the manufacture did that to an engine (with no mechanical changes) one year while the previous year ran the heavier weight. The Chrysler Pentastar being a prime example. It was changed in the middle of 2013 from 5w-30 to 5w-20. Once again, it is all about achieving peak MPG's.

3.) Let's not forget that some OM's are very vague too. The one for my GF's turbo charged Volvo says any API SL oil will work when in reality it needs to be an A3/ B3 oil because of the turbo. I think we can all think of a few other OM's that are like this. With my brief non-scientific experience, the switch from conventional to synthetic alone made a huge difference in how the filter looked coming out of a 3k OCI. The more synthetic intervals this car sees, the cleaning that filter is becoming. It is now on M1 0w-40. Ill continue to run whatever A3/B3 oil I can find the cheapest. Castrol 0w30/ 40, M1 0w-40, Pennzoil Ultra Euro, Rotella T6 etc. *When the filter comes out sludge free, I'll up the OCI. Right now, it takes her about 6 months to drive 3k.
 
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: hatt
You have to look no further that the 5.0 in Mustangs to know manufacturer requirements contain shenanigans.


Very good point. What bone head over at ford decided to spec 5w20 only for a5.0 stang. Then some trusting Joe takes it to the track and "Pow"!!!
Lol ok maybe the whole car doesn't blow up but...


I think the shenanigans reference was more in regards to the same engine spec'ing 5w-20 or 5w-50 depending on whether you got the "Track Pack" on your GT or not
smile.gif

All sorts of issues.
If the 5.0 engine needs 5W-50 for high speed operation why not give it as an option in the GT manual.
If 5W-20 is optimal in the 5.0 for general driving conditions why not give it as an option in the TP manual.
If the engine needs 5W-50 why spec an oil that quickly shears to a 40 and then on down to a 30.
If 40 is the sweet spot, since that's where the MC 5W-50 will spend much of it's time, then why not give an option for a 40.
 
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: CKN
Many on here think they know better than the engineers who designed the cars. Yes, the engineers don't always get it right but they probably know more than most on here. However, those who think they know more than the engineers is what makes BITOG so entertaining.

After all....it's not just about oil.


I think the engineers probably do the best they can with what their given to work with. However I think their restrained to an extent and left to try and make do with options they probably would not limit themselves to apart from the influences of standards such as CAFE etc.


I would agree.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: hatt
You have to look no further that the 5.0 in Mustangs to know manufacturer requirements contain shenanigans.


Very good point. What bone head over at ford decided to spec 5w20 only for a5.0 stang. Then some trusting Joe takes it to the track and "Pow"!!!
Lol ok maybe the whole car doesn't blow up but...


I think the shenanigans reference was more in regards to the same engine spec'ing 5w-20 or 5w-50 depending on whether you got the "Track Pack" on your GT or not
smile.gif

All sorts of issues.
If the 5.0 engine needs 5W-50 for high speed operation why not give it as an option in the GT manual.
If 5W-20 is optimal in the 5.0 for general driving conditions why not give it as an option in the TP manual.
If the engine needs 5W-50 why spec an oil that quickly shears to a 40 and then on down to a 30.
If 40 is the sweet spot, since that's where the MC 5W-50 will spend much of it's time, then why not give an option for a 40.


Exactly. Though I think the shear is a known quality and must either be acceptable or desirable based on Ford's testing
21.gif
 
I sent a note to the Driven oils tech line. I asked about HPDE Driver's Schools with a bone stock 2015 Mustang GT 5.0 PP. Driven oils make performance oriented PAO grp IV oils, including some focused on Ford engines. Here's their response:

Richard,

Thanks for the email. If Ford specs 5W-20, then stay with a 5W-20. The FR20 (Driven's PAO 5w20 for street) can handle the rigors of track day use without generating the extra oil pressure and oil temp that a 5W-50 would produce.

Thanks,

Lake Speed Jr.
Certified Lubrication Specialist & Oil Monitoring Analyst
Driven Racing Oil
13201 Reese Blvd W, Suite 200
Huntersville, NC 28078

I also called Ford's Racing Tech Line (800-367-3788) and got essentially the same answer: stick with 5w20 viscosity because that's what the engine is designed for, particularly the cam phasers; maybe upgrade to a full synthetic or racing oil for track, but stay at 5w20.

PS: To my knowledge there is no "Track Pack" option for the 2015's GT 5.0. FWIW, with the 5w20 the oil pressures in the 2015 GT run at least 20 psi for each 1000 rpm when the engine is hot.
 
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Originally Posted By: m6pwr
I sent a note to the Driven oils tech line. I asked about HPDE Driver's Schools with a bone stock 2015 Mustang GT 5.0 PP. Driven oils make performance oriented PAO grp IV oils, including some focused on Ford engines. Here's their response:

Richard,

Thanks for the email. If Ford specs 5W-20, then stay with a 5W-20. The FR20 (Driven's PAO 5w20 for street) can handle the rigors of track day use without generating the extra oil pressure and oil temp that a 5W-50 would produce.

Thanks,

Lake Speed Jr.
Certified Lubrication Specialist & Oil Monitoring Analyst
Driven Racing Oil
13201 Reese Blvd W, Suite 200
Huntersville, NC 28078

I also called Ford's Racing Tech Line (800-367-3788) and got essentially the same answer: stick with 5w20 viscosity because that's what the engine is designed for, particularly the cam phasers; maybe upgrade to a full synthetic or racing oil for track, but stay at 5w20.


Would be interesting to make the same inquiry but with "bone stock 2014 Mustang GT 5.0 Track Pack"
wink.gif


BTW, there is no difference between the phasers on the engines that spec 5w-50 and those that spec 5w-20. Same goes for BMW with the engines that spec'd 5w-30 and those that spec'd 10w-60.
 
No flak, but I would venture to say there are a few people on this site that know more about lubrication than those that design engines. Plus, auto manufacturers are help in the grip of gov’t regulations, we are not. Think about it, why do the German automakers favor 5W30 & 5W40 and everyone here is running 5W20? Maybe there is a logical answer, but I do know improving my car and experimenting with different oils is fun!
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Sometimes you gotta think outside the spec to use what your engine really needs.
What testing criteria did you use to determine this? What were the results of the testing?
Did you read my post? Ford specified 5w-30 for the 4.6L and 5.4L in the late 90s, then changed it to 5w-20 in the early 2000's because of CAFE. My "outside the spec" line was referring to me using 5w-30 because that is what the Ford Engineer's thought the engine should use, rather than what CAFE says to use. Relax a little and don't take what I said to have any deeper of a meaning than that. Jeesh. You're a fellow F-150 owner, you should know about the 5w-20 vs 5w-30 debate. Both will work just fine! I could use 5w-20 without issue. But I use 5w-30 because it's what my generation of F-150 used the previous 3 or 4 years before my year. I think people take the 5w-20 vs 5w-30 debate (specifically regarding the Triton engines) too far. It's not that big of a deal. Run what you want.
Yes, of course I read your post. But you said "Sometimes you gotta think outside the spec to use what your engine really needs." Therefore, I wanted you to expound on what that means via some testing criteria--since the engine seems to "need" to run thicker oil.

However, what I now gather you meant to say is "Sometimes you gotta think outside the spec to use what you really want to." Nothing wrong with that, but there is a slight difference between the two--one is fact based and the other emotion based.

Well, I am an INFJ.

Anywho, the good thing about our Triton Modulars is that they aren't picky about oil. At least for my generation anyway; I'm not as keen with the newer gen's of 4.6L and 5.4L. I just like using 5w-30 because I know it's been proven to work just fine for my engine.

I just wish there were more 0w-30 oils available, and cheaper than what they are now.

~ Triton
 
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy


I bet you $100 that if I run the 5w20 my truck calls for I will sell it or junk it with a fine running engine.


I don't care what you do with your truck. Send it to the car crusher today, as far as I care.

I bet you $100 that "the engineers" run higher viscosity oils than the owners manuals call for in many cases, but are prohibited from officially saying so.

Once again, why do many manufactures spec higher viscosity oils all around the globe, EXCEPT THE USA for the same engines? Anyone who can't figure that one out is just hopeless.
 
From LQUI MOLY:

LINK
http://www.liqui-moly.us/liquimoly/web.n...&redirect=1

September 2014 – LIQUI MOLY's free online oil guide now presents an entire series of new features. Its filter function for search results is unique worldwide. After entering the make, model and engine version, the results can also be optimized to include the model year, mileage and desired oil quality. "This gives users more precise results", stated Peter Baumann, Marketing Manager at LIQUI MOLY.

The country-based adaptation of the results is also new. The online oil guide recognizes the country from which the user accesses the site. In countries with extremely hot climates, motor oils with a viscosity of 0W are not indicated, when other viscosities are approved, because higher viscosity oils are better in such cases. In countries with high sulfur content in the fuel, no recommendations are made regarding the intervals for changing oil. High quantities of sulfur lead to increased amounts of acid in the motor oil. At some point the motor oil can no longer neutralize this acid, making it necessary to change the oil before reaching the regular oil change interval.

"All these improvements increase the benefit of our oil guide", concluded Peter Baumann. "Because we not only want as many car owners as possible to use our motor oil - we also want them to use it correctly."
 
wemay, I agree thoroughly with the stated intent of the liquimoly search engine benefits.

But all such filtering technologies can be used for "evil", and could prevent access to knowledge about what's going on around the place...i.e. through their website you may never be able to learn what others are recommended in other countries.
 
I can see that being the case as well. But the nibble of information afforded to us from the bold type is more so where i was going with this post. Where the rather simple argument that the only reason other countries recommend higher viscosity oils is because they automatically protect significantly better because of their higher viscosity is often used here. Never taking into account fuel makeup, long drain intervals etc.
 
One issue i do have with the LM statement is...

'In countries with extremely hot climates, motor oils with a viscosity of 0W are not indicated, when other viscosities are approved, because higher viscosity oils are better in such cases.'

Why would the 0W be of any significance when it's the number after the cold temp rating that gives you a fully warmed engine's viscosity. It isn't as if LM doesn't offer 0W-40.
 
This thread is kind of moot if the owner's manual gives you a temperature chart and a choice of 3 or 4 viscosities depending on the ambient temperature....
 
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