Looking for suggestions on defense ammunition

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Astro14
I'm with bubbatime on this...

Look, the intent is different.

If you're looking to stop a threat, then, clearly, a more effective round will will be the one that causes more damage.

But your intent is to stop, not cause damage. It's a subtle, but important difference.

Tell law enforcement, or jury, or lawyer, that you were shooting to stop a threat, and you've got a reasonable self-defense case.

Tell them that you were shooting to inflict maximum damage, and you're a criminal...
You shouldn't be telling law enforcement anything after a shooting.


I never said that you should...it was a hypothetical...and I included several options, including lawyer (and you should have a lawyer) all of which illustrate the point: intent matters.

 

[punisher]

Originally Posted By: hatt
You shouldn't be telling law enforcement anything after a shooting.


Cannot put it better. Good video:

 

[Islandvic]

The link of the youtube video that "punisher" posted is great.

I have seen the video before and started to recollect about it while reading the thread, then there it was at the bottom!

I would advise all to watch the video in its entirety and uninterrupted. Great stuff.

Home defense rounds I trust include:

Federal HST
Federal Hydra-Shok (old tech but proven)
Speer Gold Dot

Hornady Critical Defense (I never used it but has great reviews on the interweb)


Try to buy in 50 round boxes like someone mentioned before. The usually cost the same or only slightly more than the 20rd boxes for some reason, or in the case where I buy mine from.


The Critical Defense is interesting in its naming and marketing for the following reason, if you are involved in a legit self defense shooting and the victim or victim's family sues you in civil court, they can not claim you used some type of crazy ammo or you were "out to kill someone" b/c you were using Zombie Brand or RIP's etc etc. The name on the box explains your intentions: Defense!

I hope this helps.

 

[john_pifer]

Originally Posted By: Cujet


However, I also know that +P hollow point ammo often exits the other side of the recipient.


Actually, according to many ballistics gel ammo tests I've watched, higher-velocity expanding hollowpoint ammo is LESS likely to overpenetrate, because, with higher velocity, the projectile expands more, and causes less penetration.

OTOH, lower velocity often, counterintuitively, penetrates MORE because it doesn't expand as much.

A good example of this would be firing a particular hollowpoint through a full-length barrel pistol, like, say, a Gov't model 1911 with 5" barrel vs. my Glock 36 with its 3.75" barrel. The extra velocity put on the bullet by the 1911 will result in more expansion and less penetration than an identical projectile fired out of the Glock.

Therefore, some rounds that work great out of the 1911 would not be good performers out of the G36.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: 2cool
The whole point of shooting someone is to cause as much damage as possible to them.


Get that frame of thought completely out of your head, unless you like the idea of a 7x10 prison cell for the rest of your life. The point of shooting someone is TO STOP THEM from the felonious activity they were doing. Nothing more, and nothing less. If you shoot in a perp's direction and miss, and they stop their felonious activity, than you have stopped them without even "damaging them as much as possible." If you shoot a person one time in the pinky and they immediately stop what they were doing, than that was a successful deployment of force.

The act of shooting a person may stop them, either via physiological or psychological response. Psychological is where they realize that they have been shot and than immediately stop their attack (by choice, even though they were physically able to continue to attack if they wanted to). Physiological is where they can no longer continue the attack due to blood loss or physical damage to the nervous system.

It's always and has always been "shoot to stop", never shoot to kill. If you are shooting to maim or kill, that that makes you a criminal.


Good advice here

 

[billt460]

As for what type of ammunition to use, just call your local police department and ask them what they use. Use the same. How can you go wrong?

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: billt460
As for what type of ammunition to use, just call your local police department and ask them what they use. Use the same. How can you go wrong?


If a local or major law enforcement agency uses that brand/round, it would also save you from any anti gunner prosecutor that might try to argue to a jury that you used overly deadly ammo. Your life is worth just as much and is worth preserving just as much as an officer or agents.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
If a local or major law enforcement agency uses that brand/round, it would also save you from any anti gunner prosecutor that might try to argue to a jury that you used overly deadly ammo. Your life is worth just as much and is worth preserving just as much as an officer or agents.


Exactly. And it's the reason I use Speer Gold Dots. Not because I've researched their performance. I actually ran into a Phoenix cop and asked him. He told me and that was good enough for me.

 

[totegoat]

A .22 will kill. Here is more info:

ammo

 

[punisher]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
A .22 will kill.


Sure it will.....sometimes. Sometimes, many times, a little 22lr does nothing. When I was 15 one of my schoolmate's dad was shot outside a bar by someone wielding a little 22 pistol. Don't know what rounds it was loaded with. The police were called because after he was shot, 7 times, he proceeded to beat the shooter to a bloody pulp. He was cuffed and in the cruiser before he convinced the LEOs that the blood all over his shirt belonged to him due to gunshot wounds. Couple days in the hospital, and no long lasting effects. Now other 22s, like a 223/5.56 I am comfortable with. 22lr is a coin toss.

Depending on the state where a self defense shooting occurs the ammo can come into question, especially if there is a civil trial involved. If you live in a state where there is no civil shield for self defense, then even silly things like the type/name of the ammo can be a factor. I do not lie. If you use an ammo named "Gut Ripper" with six razor sharp talons that expand to cut flesh to shreds (lawyer talk), and designed to kill the "victim", then that can be a factor for an ignorant jury. Just saying. My CCW teacher was a retired MP, retired police detective, and attorney. He made me think about a lot of things regarding self defense shoots and how it looks to LEOs and third parties. +P+ Fuzzy Kitty ammo. Glaser Safety Slugs.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
A .22 will kill.


So will a rabid dog. Are you going to keep one on a leash to defend your life? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but I get so sick of hearing this every time the issue of self defense weapons and ammunition comes up. It really has no place in this, or any other self defense conversation involving firearms.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
A .22 will kill. Here is more info:

ammo


But not before the bad guy can kill you. Most 22 deaths are bleed outs which means the threat is not neutralized efficiently and effectively. There was a kid here that got shot 4 times with a 22, including two to the brain and lived. Just lost sight in one eye. Pretty sure if he took two 380's, 9mm's, or 45's to the skull he would be pushing daisies.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
A .22 will kill. Here is more info:

ammo


So what?

Your purpose in using a firearm is to STOP THE THREAT. Not to kill.

You have to keep that principle clearly in mind when discussing defensive use of a firearm. It's not about killing, it's about stopping the bad guy from killing and/or severely harming you.

.22 may just exacerbate the situation, resulting in a worse outcome for you. You want the most effective weapon (ammo and firearm combination) that you can handle. If all you can handle is a .22, then it's because you're weak/frail (think little old lady) and it is better than your fists in that case, but for most adult males, .22 is a terrible choice for a defensive firearm.

 

[totegoat]

If you had bothered to open the link, you would have possibly figured out I wasn't promoting the .22 or a BB gun, but linking to Guns&Ammo.

"Critical Duty ammo tends to offer non-traditional bullet weights, such as a 135-grain 9mm or a 220-grain .45 ACP."

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
"Critical Duty ammo tends to offer non-traditional bullet weights, such as a 135-grain 9mm or a 220-grain .45 ACP."
IMHO - 135gr 9MM is the perfect weight for defense in 9MM or .357SIG. 147gr is too heavy and 115gr is too light. While 124gr tends to bridge that gap, I think the 135gr fits the niche perfectly and performs very well as evidenced by tests from many "semi-pro" testers (such as TNOutdoors9) on You Tube.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: totegoat
If you had bothered to open the link, you would have possibly figured out I wasn't promoting the .22 or a BB gun, but linking to Guns&Ammo.

"Critical Duty ammo tends to offer non-traditional bullet weights, such as a 135-grain 9mm or a 220-grain .45 ACP."


I did open the link. .22s weren't mentioned. At all.

So, if your point was that there are non-traditional bullet weights being offered for traditional calibers, you certainly kept that well-hidden in your first post.

You only said that .22 will kill, which is true, but irrelevant in a defensive ammo discussion. Anthrax kills, too, but I wouldn't want to wait around while the bad guy succumbs to it...

 

[totegoat]

Some folks just keep a kaiser blade handy.