Is 0w-40 always better than 5w-, 10w,- and 15w-40?

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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Many guys in the bimmer world


Great, but we're dealing with a M116 Mercedes here.

Originally Posted By: Teddyen
Feel free to educate me!


I'd simply recommend that instead of receiving vague, generalized advice from people on an internet message board, focus on doing some research on your particular engine -- does it have any peculiarities that would result in selecting a different product for optimum performance...such as a propensity to destroy the right side camshaft?

Good luck!
 
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Many guys in the bimmer world


Great, but we're dealing with a M116 Mercedes here.


Yes, and the vast majority of oils for either application are approved for both. The requirements are very similar, which is why I mentioned it.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Many guys in the bimmer world


Great, but we're dealing with a M116 Mercedes here.


Yes, and the vast majority of oils for either application are approved for both. The requirements are very similar, which is why I mentioned it.


You're making my point for me. "Approvals", you say? Sure, I'll go there.

Mercedes FSB S-0473-07C lays out the guidelines. Know what's also approved for ALL 1997 and earlier models? Conventional, petroleum-based API SJ 5w-30.

Again, I stress to Teddyen that your time is better invested in understanding your particular engine traits.
 
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Many guys in the bimmer world


Great, but we're dealing with a M116 Mercedes here.

I'd simply recommend that instead of receiving vague, generalized advice from people on an internet message board, focus on doing some research on your particular engine -- does it have any peculiarities that would result in selecting a different product for optimum performance...such as a propensity to destroy the right side camshaft?

Good luck!



Yeah, I've tried to read up on my engine specifically, but the recommendations seems to differ just as much as with just general advice! Really, I've put much effort into this, and heave learnt a lot on the way, but I still haven't really figured out what oil would be the best, or why maybe a cheaper Mobil S2000 10w-40 would be better than a M1 0w-40 in my engine. The last advice I got was a 20w50 mineral oil for all m116 and m117 engines. The guy had apparently tried to use a 5w50, which, according to him, led to a complete breakdown because of lack of lubrication to the crankshaft. Again, feel free to educate me on how a 20w-50 would lubricate the camshaft better than a 5w-50.

I've heard about the 420's appetite for camshafts, that's also probably why both camshafts, all the rocker arms and a new chain was rolled in just two years ago by the last owner. I changed all the rubber valve seals last summer as they were hard and brittle, and the exhaust was full of blue smoke. In the same time, we changed the two upper guide rails. One was already broken in two. The bolt holding the other guide rail was bent to a 20 degree angle and had to be cut out! The mechanic couldn't understand how that had happened.

The 420's reputation for eating camshafts is also why I bought the ZDDPlus in the first place, but this was just as a result of my own thought process, not someone's direct advice. I have a feeling that you have a lot of experience with the m116s, as you mention the camshafts. What would you do to remedy this bad habit of the 420?
 
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Many guys in the bimmer world


Great, but we're dealing with a M116 Mercedes here.


Yes, and the vast majority of oils for either application are approved for both. The requirements are very similar, which is why I mentioned it.


You're making my point for me. "Approvals", you say? Sure, I'll go there.

Mercedes FSB S-0473-07C lays out the guidelines. Know what's also approved for ALL 1997 and earlier models? Conventional, petroleum-based API SJ 5w-30.

Again, I stress to Teddyen that your time is better invested in understanding your particular engine traits.


Which means that any of the current "Euro" oils are going to be overkill for the application and more than appropriate and adequate. BMW's earlier requirements were nary identical to those of Mercedes. They went to more stringent specs/approvals around the same time-frame IIRC.

But point taken regarding the engine traits. If it has some "quirks" he's better served reading up on those than obsessing about one particular oil over another.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

But point taken regarding the engine traits. If it has some "quirks" he's better served reading up on those than obsessing about one particular oil over another.


I think I have a fair overview of the m116 quirks, as mentioned in my post above. However, I still don't get why a 10w-40 would be better than a 0w-40.

The "traits" I know of, that is somehow related to oil, is:
- Upper chain guides break during start up (Both are recently changed, tensioner looked good)
- Chain stretches (New one is rolled in)
- Camshaft oil tube clogged up
- Camshaft oil tube retaining clips fail (these are changed)
- Chain slap after oil change that causes guides to break and timing to jump. The remedy is to pre-fill the oil filter housing and crank the engine a few seconds after oil change without the coil wire attached, until the oil is flowing to the tensioner / oil pressure is indicating. Have forgotten to do so, but haven't experienced any irregular noises at startup after oil change. Will do the no-coil and pre-fill procedure from now on.
- Valve steam seals get brittle. (These are all changed)
- 420s eats camshafts. Don't know what to do about it. Add ZDDP up to a level of 1400ppm together with M1 0w-40?

I really appreciate the time and help I get from you guys!
smile.gif
 
Last edited:
The 10w-40 is not going to be better than a 0w-40. It will probably be cheaper though.

I doubt you need that much ZDDP however I am not intimately familiar with that engine and the reason why it eats cams so
21.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Teddyen
Thanks for your input! I was glad when I read the first two comments, but then confused again after reading the 3rd and 4th.


unfortunately, you can't believe everything posted on the forums.

in real life (and multiple choice tests, too), always is almost always wrong answer.

all those variations of 40 oils differ not only in cold temp performance but also have different HTHS values. this is why 18-wheelers use 15W40 and not 0W40.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: Teddyen
Thanks for your input! I was glad when I read the first two comments, but then confused again after reading the 3rd and 4th.


unfortunately, you can't believe everything posted on the forums.

in real life (and multiple choice tests, too), always is almost always wrong answer.

all those variations of 40 oils differ not only in cold temp performance but also have different HTHS values. this is why 18-wheelers use 15W40 and not 0W40.


Unless it is Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 0w-40
wink.gif


http://www.mobil.ca/Canada-English-LCW/h...1-esp-0w40.aspx

Originally Posted By: Mobil

Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 0W-40 meets or exceeds the following industry and builder specifications: 0W-40
API CJ-4/CI-4 PLUS/CI-4/CH-4/SM
Caterpillar ECF-3
Cummins CES 20081, 20076
Mack EO-N Premium Plus 03
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

Unless it is Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 0w-40
wink.gif


http://www.mobil.ca/Canada-English-LCW/h...1-esp-0w40.aspx

Originally Posted By: Mobil

Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 0W-40 meets or exceeds the following industry and builder specifications: 0W-40
API CJ-4/CI-4 PLUS/CI-4/CH-4/SM
Caterpillar ECF-3
Cummins CES 20081, 20076
Mack EO-N Premium Plus 03


OK, fair enough. what's the HTHS then?


PDS doesn't say. Though it is heavier (using KV) than M1 0w-40:

http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENCVLMOMOBIL_DELVAC_1_ESP_0W-40.aspx

15.2cSt vs 13.5. For reference, the Delvac 1 5w-40 is 14.7cSt.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


OK, fair enough. what's the HTHS then?


PDS doesn't say.


point proven.


Not really
wink.gif
You said 18 wheelers use 15w-40 not 0w-40. That's not true. There are approved 0w-40 lubricants for 18-wheeler applications and I gave an example of one. Simply because Mobil doesn't list HTHS for it or their 5w-40 isn't really relevant to that point. They are still approved.

The problem is people getting caught up in the number in front of the W and not looking at the applicability/approvals of the product to determine its appropriateness.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


OK, fair enough. what's the HTHS then?


PDS doesn't say.


point proven.


Oh, and just to further my own point here:

Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck (approved by CAT):
http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENPVLMOMobil1_Turbo_Diesel_Truck_5W-40.aspx

Has an HTHS of 3.8cP.

Mobil 1 0w-40 (not approved by CAT):
http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.aspx

Has an HTHS of 3.8cP.

Mobil Delvac 1300 Super contains two HDEO grades for semi's, a 10w-30 and a 15w-40:
http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1300_Super.aspx

The 10w-30 has an HTHS of 3.6cP, the 15w-40 one of 4.3cP. You'll also note they have many of the same approvals.
 
Devlac elite 222 is a 0w-30,has been on the market for as long as I can remember, badged with an imperial oil logo though so I'm going to guess hths at 3.7.
Great oil and when still badged as imperial it cost easily half as much as now.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


OK, fair enough. what's the HTHS then?


PDS doesn't say.


point proven.


Oh, and just to further my own point here:

Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck (approved by CAT):
http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENPVLMOMobil1_Turbo_Diesel_Truck_5W-40.aspx

Has an HTHS of 3.8cP.

Mobil 1 0w-40 (not approved by CAT):
http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENPVLMOMobil_1_0W-40.aspx

Has an HTHS of 3.8cP.

Mobil Delvac 1300 Super contains two HDEO grades for semi's, a 10w-30 and a 15w-40:
http://www.mobil.com/Canada-English/Lubes/PDS/IOCAENCVLMOMobil_Delvac_1300_Super.aspx

The 10w-30 has an HTHS of 3.6cP, the 15w-40 one of 4.3cP. You'll also note they have many of the same approvals.


good googling skills.
now you see what i'm talking about: HTHS of 0W40/5W40 is below 15W40. barely above that 10W30 HDEO.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

good googling skills.
now you see what i'm talking about: HTHS of 0W40/5W40 is below 15W40. barely above that 10W30 HDEO.


No, I still don't see what you are talking about. If they all meet the same approvals, then they will all perform the same in service. And we have no idea what the HTHS of the Delvac 0w-40 is, it may be 4.0cP, since its KV100 is higher than the 5w-40. I can also find a 10w-30 with an HTHS of 3.0cP. It is the approvals/applicability that matters, not the grade on the bottle. But then I would hope that I could assume that you already know that.

You stated they don't use 0w-40 in semi's. That's patently false and the point I replied to (and in good humour I might add). I don't know why we are playing chase the mongoose with HTHS as it does nothing to change the facts presented.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't know why we are playing chase the mongoose with HTHS as it does nothing to change the facts presented.


because it's the major difference and no, 0w40 is not ALWAYS better. i just said so in my very first post.

and by the way, talk to your long distance truckers buddies and ask them how many are using 0W40.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't know why we are playing chase the mongoose with HTHS as it does nothing to change the facts presented.


because it's the major difference and no, 0w40 is not ALWAYS better. i just said so in my very first post.

and by the way, talk to your long distance truckers buddies and ask them how many are using 0W40.


Now you just sound bitter and jaded, LOL! I didn't say it was always better, simply rebutted your claim about it not being used in semi's. I was just busting your balls about that statement since I knew that a few approved products existed in that grade
wink.gif


Regarding major differences, depends on how you define them I guess. Shell Marine 15w-40 has an HTHS of 4.0:
http://www.epc.shell.com/documentRetrieve.asp?documentId=18186870

Closer to the PCMO Mobil 0w-40 than to the Delvac 15w-40.

Valvoline Premium Blue 5w-40 has the same HTHS as M1 0w-40, despite being an HDEO.

I don't have any trucker "buddies". Not really in-line with what I do for a living. However, my diesel mechanic friend maintained a fleet of dump trucks for the county that used D1 5w-40. Apparently the 0w-40 is popular in Alberta where the extra cost makes sense.

15w-40 is cheap and it works. That's why it is the predominant choice.
 
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