20w50 5w20 blend

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Quote JASO T903 Implementation Manual
Quote:
In recent years, engine oils for 4-wheel vehicles have tended toward lower viscosity and lower friction to achieve better fuel economy. There are concerns that such low friction and low viscosity oils, when used in motorcycles, may cause clutch slippage and transmission gear pitting wear.
[...]Field problems have actually been observed that are probably attributable to such problems.


Read carefully above.
Using an EC/RC oil in a wet clutch is an experiment (that I'd never do).
There is absolutely no reason to play with these oils in a wet clutch but hey if you do, please don't keep telling every bike on the planet will play well with it.

Concerning Shannow's question, the logic makes me think it is detrimental.

OP let the 5w30 or 0w20 to your cars
thumbsup2.gif
 
I did not know a 2007 manual was "old". Especially when it is newer than your bike. I also find it funny how you post random diagrams from manuals like it proves your point but then frown on others for posting manual materials if it specifically contradicts your thesis that EC oils are fine for wet clutch systems.


Way to be all snide in your comments toward education. I could argue that any idiot can buy a lathe, but just try to make it though 4 years of grad school, qualifying exams, and original research.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
I did not know a 2007 manual was "old". Especially when it is newer than your bike.


Quote Robenstein "From my old Yamaha manual"

Originally Posted By: Robenstein

I also find it funny how you post random diagrams from manuals like it proves your point but then frown on others for posting manual materials if it specifically contradicts your thesis that EC oils are fine for wet clutch systems.


Your "old" manual warns against ECII oil... it doesn't contradict the mounting evidence
from a number of sources that EC oils do not defeat a wet clutch in good working order...

Originally Posted By: Robenstein

Way to be all snide in your comments toward education. I could argue that any idiot can buy a lathe, but just try to make it though 4 years of grad school, qualifying exams, and original research.


I don't have a contempt for education... I have a towering respect for higher learning... but if you can't kid you can't live...
 
BSS,
here's yet another link, from SAE
http://papers.sae.org/2003-01-1956/

You can look at the preview, and can see that there is a vast difference on Coefficient of Friction depending on additives...yes, typical automotive additives.

If your clutch is 1% away from slipping on oil a, and 100% away from slipping on oil b, your grassroots movement cannot tell.

But the engineers who built your bike can, the oil manufacturers who built your oil can...and that's why they make their recommendation.
 
Old was meant in "the bike I owned before I had my current one"

Maybe you are just nitpicking because it is all you can against evidence at this point.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
BSS,
here's yet another link, from SAE
http://papers.sae.org/2003-01-1956/

You can look at the preview, and can see that there is a vast difference on Coefficient of Friction depending on additives...yes, typical automotive additives.

If your clutch is 1% away from slipping on oil a, and 100% away from slipping on oil b, your grassroots movement cannot tell.

But the engineers who built your bike can, the oil manufacturers who built your oil can...and that's why they make their recommendation.



+1
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein


I trust the SAE versus the old butt dyno


Auto Engineers are trusted myth busters... but do they under stand that motorcycles are music to the seat of our pants???
 
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Shannow


The EC oils are operating closer to, or more often in boundary lubrication conditions, which is why they need the additional FMs to prevent accelerated wear due to the viscosity reduction.


I can't respond unless I know what specific FM concerns you???

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3727709/Re:_Shell_presentation_on_oil,#Post3727709

Molakule explains the difference between an anti wear additive (your list of things that are the same, and in fact much higher in thicker oils)...and friction modifiers which are in the thinner resource conserving oils.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow

Molakule explains the difference between an anti wear additive (your list of things that are the same, and in fact much higher in thicker oils)...and friction modifiers which are in the thinner resource conserving oils.



I understand the difference but according to Molakule Friction
Modifiers are actually designed for "smooth wet clutch engagement" and
so the notion Friction Modifiers are not wet clutch compatible is
false... it just more evidence that Friction Modifiers can not defeat
a wet clutch in good working order and that Energy Conserving oils
will meet and exceed your mileage expectations...

Quote Molakule
Oil soluble friction modifiers - once called friction reducers - have
been used many years by the lubricant industry. Many products made use
of friction reducers:

- Automatic Transmission Fluids (ATF's or those designed for smooth clutch engagement)
- Limited Slip Gear Oils for limited slip differentials and transaxles
- Multipurpose tractor fluids for wet brakes
- engine oils
 
BSS...those are specifically for wet clutches, not GF5/6 boundary layer FMs for energy conserving oils.

They are there to prevent grab/chatter...by REDUCING the friction between the clutch plates.

i.e. you are acknowledging that they reduce friction in your above statement...LOL.

I've got quite a few papers that I didn't bring to the table in the discussion on engine oils in wet clutches because they were specifically transmission lubricants, in transmissions and differentials...you pooh pooh anything that isn't specifically Mr Honda, and his exploded view.

But as you've opened the door, I'll bring them in.
 
OK, will take your 4 applications, and demonstrate how much little they have in common with MrHonda's wet clutch...now remember, MrHonda's wet clutch is there to lock up solidly, have a zero speed difference, and transfer the full torque.

Your clutch is essentially engaged the vast majority of the time, and slips only on starts, and slightly through gear changes.

As previously explained (and ignored), you do not glaze and blue clutch plates without the clutch being slipped, or slipping...zero speed difference, zero heat generation...and zero bluing.

Slip = heat = bluing.

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
- engine oils


Included first, as it's the topic at hand.

Here's why they are introduced into engine oils, and why they are in EC oils.

The cold thick oil protects with full hydrodynamic lubrication. As the oil warms and thins, the parts start to make contact (boundary), and increase wear and drag.

Friction modifiers take the point at which contact is commencing, and form very easily sheared "soapy" layers that reduce friction and minimise wear (still allow more than hydrodynamic).

e.g.
boundary.jpg


NB : the engine parts are moving with respect to each other and in now way are equivalent to your locked clutch...the reduction in friction IS relevent to your clutch.

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
- Limited Slip Gear Oils for limited slip differentials and transaxles


In a limited SLIP differential, the clutch packs are designed to operate in a SLIPPING mode...the absence of friction modifiers means that they grab and bang, as the friction in the clutch is high, torque through differences in wheel speeds winds up the axles like a torsion spring, and when the clutch finally releases, it lurches and bangs badly.

The inclusion of friction modifiers drops the friction between the clutches, and allows the clutch to slip, allowing smooth operation.

Relevence to Mr Honda ?

Nil really...except that FMs clearly reduce the torque holding capacity of the clutches.

Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
- Multipurpose tractor fluids for wet brakes


Again, consider that the tractor brakes are generally sliding...exactly the same as MrHonda's clutch isn't...yet.

The friction modifiers are installed in the lubricant so that as the brakes are applied, and start to slow the tractor, they don't suddenly reach the rising torque area of boundary lubrication and suddenly grab.

Again, the FMs are there to REDUCE the static friction of an applied brake, and make it slip easier.


Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop

- Automatic Transmission Fluids (ATF's or those designed for smooth clutch engagement)


Again, the clutches and bands in an automatic are sliding, and again, as they approach engaged, have a quickly rising torque characteristic and grab.

FMs are installed in their lubes, again to reduce the static friction, and as a result reduce the ultimate torque carrying capability...to make the transmission shift smoothly, and slip more.

Drag racers quicken the clutch engagements to minimise the slip (slip = heat) that occurs on a shift, and sometime choose non FM oils...or they burn clutches.

The four areas that you quote are exactly the opposite of what you want from your wet clutch.

They are all REDUCING FRICTION, which by definition reduces the capacity of a wet clutch to transmit torque.

They all do it for a reason, that the static friction co-efficient is markedly higher than the dynamic, and they are trying to reduce that friction to create smoothness.
 
Shannow...you are right when it comes to transmissions. In our shop back in the day we had to rebuild many Ford C6 and C4 transmissions when the owner dumped Dex/Merc fluid in instead of Type F. The frictions modifiers in the Dex/Merc burnt up the clutches in the Ford transmissions. The problem....friction modifiers.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
MrHonda's wet clutch is there to lock up solidly, have a zero speed difference, and transfer the full torque.
Your clutch is essentially engaged the vast majority of the time, and slips only on starts, and slightly through gear changes.



I stopped right there because you didn't mention Mr.Honda's patented slipper clutch is
designed to slip during down shifts to prevent wheel hop and so your concerns about
bluing are isolated to just the 3 slipper plates...

See if you can spot the slipper clutch... no there won't be a test later...
34224d1352143693-slipper-clutch-thoughts-rc45clutch.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I take it that is BSS for..."look over there, a bunny"


I do and I do for you cagers and this is the thanks I get???
 
Originally Posted By: BusyLittleShop
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I take it that is BSS for..."look over there, a bunny"


I do and I do for you cagers and this is the thanks I get???


I'd seriously knock off with the "cager" stuff man. What vehicle you operate does not dictate your intelligence.

Comes off awful pretentious
 
Originally Posted By: Robenstein


What vehicle you operate does not dictate your intelligence.


I don't know Rob... some Cagers think asphalt is butt trouble...
 
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