Recent Topics
Which Synthetic Oil Do You Use, And Why?
by BlueOvalFitter. 07/18/19 10:50 PM
do laptop batteries really go bad or
by WhyMe. 07/18/19 10:32 PM
2016-2017 Chevy Equinox reliability
by gregk24. 07/18/19 10:12 PM
Mann HU816 x
by IllinoisSparky. 07/18/19 09:41 PM
Seafood Combo
by vavavroom. 07/18/19 09:37 PM
‘13 Silverado 1500 Extended Cab
by parshisa. 07/18/19 09:35 PM
Where to have a watch serviced?
by E150GT. 07/18/19 08:32 PM
Stubborn diff fill plug
by HoosierJeeper. 07/18/19 08:21 PM
Big score on auto parts clearance AAP
by Marco620. 07/18/19 08:05 PM
Would this cause my jeep to stall?
by MileHigh18. 07/18/19 08:00 PM
Looking for Highlander '06,'07, '09
by Gebo. 07/18/19 06:39 PM
'03 F150 Parking Brake Adjustment
by benjamming. 07/18/19 06:17 PM
Do You Still Change Your Oil at 3K?
by Gebo. 07/18/19 05:33 PM
Any sellers on amazon for Honda A02?
by BTLew81. 07/18/19 03:44 PM
First SMR (MMR) slated to be built at Chalk River
by OVERKILL. 07/18/19 03:31 PM
Torque Specs for 2004 Dodge Ram transfer case
by diyjake. 07/18/19 02:15 PM
OAT ad NOAT
by CCI. 07/18/19 02:06 PM
30 years clean & sober today.
by Papa Bear. 07/18/19 02:03 PM
Newest Members
suuru, Hollicrev, Richb55, Shaz, Grousebeater
68702 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
72 registered members (4WD, 01rangerxl, 2015_PSD, 14Accent, ajchien, 1WildPig, 8 invisible), 1,373 guests, and 29 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics292,057
Posts5,016,038
Members68,702
Most Online2,967
Mar 10th, 2019
Donate to BITOG
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel #3676280
03/24/15 10:56 AM
03/24/15 10:56 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,217
Deep in the heart of Jersey
BigCahuna Offline OP
BigCahuna  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,217
Deep in the heart of Jersey
I found this online and don't see why they would recommend Diesel oil over those oils made and sold as motorcycle specific oils. Everything you wanted to know about oil can be found here:

http://www.petro-canada.ca/pdfs/englube.pdf

The Codes are listed here starting about page 34

"S" – SPARK IGNITION (Gasoline, Propane, CNG)

The second letter designated the type and year of the additives

In general The higher the code, the newer the oil. It is generally OK to use a higher letter, however, some oils had detergents while others didn't. If you have an older vehicle that was not designed to handle detergents (to reduce deposits) it may be harmeful to add an oil with detergent in it. Different additives could have a detrimental effect the different materials used for gaskets and seals.

Exerpts from the link:

Standards SA to SF are considered obsolete. The current standard is backservicable to these standards.

SG = Service typical of gasoline engines in passenger cars, vans, and light trucks beginning with the 1989 model year

SH = 1994 provides improved control of engine deposits, oxidation and engine wear relative to oils developed for previous categories. Oils meeting API Service Classification SH may be used to replace SG, SG/CC, SF, SF/CC and SE are recommended. (obsolete)

SJ = 1997 SJ may be used where API Service Classifications SH

and earlier have been recommended.

SL = 2001 Service typical of gasoline engines in passenger cars, sport utility vehicles,

vans and light trucks effective July 1, 2001. In addition to a general improvement

in quality, this new standard aims specifically to improve oil volatility,

SM = 2004 In addition to a general improvement in quality, this new standard aims specifically to improve oil volatility, oil life, fuel economy and emissions system compatibility. Oils meeting API Service

Classification SM may be used where API Service Classifications SL and earlier have been recommended.

"C" – COMPRESSION IGNITION (Diesel)

CA FOR DIESEL ENGINE SERVICE 1940's and 1950's

Service typical of diesel engines operated in mild to moderate duty with high

quality fuels and occasionally has included gasoline engines in mild service.

CB FOR DIESEL ENGINE SERVICE 1949.

mild to moderate duty, but with lower quality fuels which necessitate more protection from wear and deposits.

CC FOR DIESEL ENGINE SERVICE 1961

Service typical of certain naturally aspirated, turbo-charged or supercharged

diesel engines operated in moderate to severe duty service and certain heavy-duty

gasoline engines. Oils designed for this service provide protection from

high temperature deposits and bearing corrosion in these diesel engines and

also from rust, corrosion and low-temperature deposits in gasoline engines.

CD FOR DIESEL ENGINE SERVICE 1955

Service typical of certain naturally aspirated, turbocharged or supercharged

diesel engines where highly effective control of wear and deposits is vital, or

when using fuels of a wide quality range including high sulfur fuels. Oils

provide protection from bearing corrosion and from high-temperature deposits in these diesel engines.

CD-II FOR FOR SEVERE DUTY 2-STROKE

Service typical of 2-stroke cycle diesel engines requiring highly effective

control over wear and deposits. Oils designed for this service also meet all

performance requirements of API Service Category CD. (obsolete)

CE = 1983 DIESEL ENGINE SERVICE - certain turbocharged or supercharged heavy-duty diesel engines operated under both low speed high load and high speed high load conditions. Oils designed for this service must also meet the requirements of the API Engine Service Categories CC and CD.

CF = 1994 OFF-ROAD INDIRECT INJECTED DIESEL ENGINE SERVICE

off-road indirect injected diesel engines and other diesel engines that use a broad range of fuel types

including those using fuel with higher sulphur content, for example, over 0.5% wt. Effective control of piston deposits, wear and corrosion of copper-containing bearings is essential for these engines which may be naturally aspirated, turbocharged or supercharged. Oils designated for this service may also be

used when API Service Category CD is recommended.

CF-2 FOR 1994 SEVERE DUTY 2-STROKE CYCLE DIESEL ENGINE SERVICE

two-stroke cycle engines requiring highly effective control over cylinder and ring-face scuffing and

deposits. - may also be used when API Service Category CD-II is recommended. These oils do not necessarily meet the requirements of CF or CF-4 unless the oils have specifically met the performance requirements of these categories.

CF-4 FOR 1991 DIESEL ENGINE SERVICE

Service typical of severe duty turbocharged, 4-stroke cycle diesel engines, particularly late models designed to give lower emissions. These engines are usually found in on-highway, heavy duty truck applications. API CF-4 oils exceed the requirements of CE category oils and can be used in place of

earlier CC, CD and CE oils.

CG-4 FOR 1994 SEVERE DUTY DIESEL ENGINE SERVICE

For use in high speed, four-stroke cycle diesel engines used in highway and off-road applications where the fuel sulphur may vary from less than 0.05 percent to less than 0.5 percent by weight. CG-4 oils provide effective control over high temperature piston deposits, wear, corrosion, foaming, oxidation

stability and soot accumulation. These oils are especially effective in engines designed to meet 1994 emission standards and may also be used in engines requiring API Service Categories CD, CE and CF-4.

CH-4 FOR 1999 SEVERE DUTY DIESEL ENGINE SERVICE

For use in high speed, four-stroke cycle diesel engines used in highway and off-road applications, where the fuel contents range from less than 0.05% to less than 0.5% by weight. CH-4 oils provide superior control over high temperature piston deposits, wear, corrosion, foaming, oxidation stability and

soot accumulation. These oils have been specifically formulated for engines designed to meet November 1998 EPA emission standards and may be used where API CD, CE, CF-4 and CG-4 oils are required. Oils designated for this service have been available since 1999.

CI-4 (CI-4 PLUS) FOR 2002 SEVERE DUTY DIESEL ENGINE SERVICE

For use in high speed, four-stroke cycle diesel engines used in highway and off-road applications where fuel sulphur contents range from less than 0.05% to less than 0.5% by weight. This new category is designed to cope with stringent environmental emissions legislation and increased engine severity

caused by Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR). Oils designated for this service are currently available from Petro-Canada and may also be used where API CD, CE, CF-4, CG-4 and CH-4 oils are required.

CJ-4 FOR 2007 SEVERE DUTY DIESEL ENGINE SERVICE

For use in high-speed four-stroke cycle diesel engines designed to meet 2007 model year on-highway exhaust emission standards as well as for previous model years. These oils are compounded for use in all applications with diesel fuels ranging in sulphur content up to 500 ppm (0.05% by weight). However, the use of these oils with greater than 15 ppm (0.0015% by weight) sulphur fuel may impact exhaust after treatment system durability and/or oil drain interval.

Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: BigCahuna] #3676289
03/24/15 11:04 AM
03/24/15 11:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,185
Guilford, CT
exranger06 Offline
exranger06  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,185
Guilford, CT
The link doesn't work. But the "S" in the ratings does not stand for "spark" ignition, and the "C" does not stand for "compression" ignition. That's a very common misconception. They actually stand for "service grade" and "commercial grade," respectively.


2006 Ford Ranger Sport
1992 Honda Accord EX
2013 Toyota Sienna XLE AWD
1994 Ford Bronco XLT (project)
2011 Cadillac Escalade ESV (wife's)
Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: BigCahuna] #3676352
03/24/15 12:29 PM
03/24/15 12:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,254
South Florida
bubbatime Online shocked
bubbatime  Online Shocked

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,254
South Florida
Most diesel oil/heavy duty engine oil is dual rated for use in both gas/diesel engines.

I believe Harley doesn't care so much about using a diesel oil, they just want you to use a heavy duty engine oil.


17 Chrysler Pacifica Edge Syn 5W30
13 Yamaha XT250 Valv MC 10W40
10 Acura TSX 2.4 Edge 0W40
06 GMC Sierra SuperTech 10W30


Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: BigCahuna] #3676359
03/24/15 12:37 PM
03/24/15 12:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 257
Florida
SJohnson Offline
SJohnson  Offline

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 257
Florida
I couldn't get the link to work either. Try this one:

http://www.oilspecifications.org/api_eolcs.php


Here's one that has a side by side comparison of HDEO:

http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/consolidated%20HDEO%202015.html

Last edited by SJohnson; 03/24/15 12:48 PM.


In God we trust, all others bring data.
Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: BigCahuna] #3676399
03/24/15 01:41 PM
03/24/15 01:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,307
TN
MinamiKotaro Offline
MinamiKotaro  Offline

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,307
TN


1967 VW Beetle: Delo 15w40/ST4386
2004 Saturn Ion: Magnatec 5w30/DW5436
2014 Polaris Ranger 570: Delo 5-40/Wix 51356
Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: BigCahuna] #3676450
03/24/15 02:51 PM
03/24/15 02:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,217
Deep in the heart of Jersey
BigCahuna Offline OP
BigCahuna  Offline OP

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,217
Deep in the heart of Jersey
To bring some of you up to speed about Harley oil here's some interesting info. While Harley's oil that's sold thru their dealership network is highly recommended by Harley for use in their motorcycles,does not carry an API symbol. They just say it's the oil to use and charge premium $$$ for it. That also goes for about every other motorcycle specific oil sold. Amsoil, Mobil 1 V-Twin oil, Valvoline ect. They say it meets a SG spec and is GL-1 rated, but only they test it. So why does Harley recommend an diesel oil that carries a higher spec then their own oil, when there are oils available that have proven to be of better quality or at the very least, as good as their own?. Soot and combustion gases have never been a issue with Harley's like they are with diesel motors, so why would this oil be preferred over any 20/50 wt with a SG rating?.,,

Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: BigCahuna] #3676453
03/24/15 02:59 PM
03/24/15 02:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,653
Central IA
Robenstein Offline
Robenstein  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,653
Central IA
I think the reasoning is this.

I have seen some Motorcycle specific oils...Kendall's for instance that are EXCEPTIONALLY weak on anti wear additives. Maybe Harley wants you to use a diesel rated oil because they typically have higher anti wear additives packages over their "s rated" cousins.

Last edited by Robenstein; 03/24/15 03:00 PM.

2011 Triumph Speedmaster
1986 Chevy Monte Carlo SS
1970 Chevy Nova
2006 Scion TC
Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: BigCahuna] #3676583
03/24/15 04:53 PM
03/24/15 04:53 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 257
Florida
SJohnson Offline
SJohnson  Offline

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 257
Florida
I believe it's all about marketing. Why would Harley recommend a 20/50 oil from a different manufacturer? That would cut into their market share. Try and find a readily available 20/50 that meets the latest HDEO spec. They are few and far between. Since most people want to run a 20/50 in their Harley and Harley recommends their 20/50 first and then a HDEO 15/40 second, I believe most people will opt for Harley oil. Unlike PCMO and HDEO, there is no spec for "MC specific" oil. So Harley recommends their 20/50. It's all about marketing and the bottom line. I'm sure if it wasn't working out for them, they would change. I guess they figure if it ain't broke, don't fix it.



In God we trust, all others bring data.
Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: BigCahuna] #3676694
03/24/15 06:18 PM
03/24/15 06:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,653
Central IA
Robenstein Offline
Robenstein  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,653
Central IA
Well most all other makers recommend an oil. Triumph recommends I use 10w50 Castrol Racing 4T. But it also says I can use any oil 10w40 or 10w50 that meets SG or higher and is JASO MA rated. My old Yamaha recommended Yamalube. Everyone tries to push their own oil, or their partners oil(as in the case with Triumph)

Harley might be crafty in the sense they know there is a very limited 50 weight family of C spec oils, so there are fewer alternatives to Harley oil if you want to keep your warranty.


2011 Triumph Speedmaster
1986 Chevy Monte Carlo SS
1970 Chevy Nova
2006 Scion TC
Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: exranger06] #3676957
03/24/15 10:04 PM
03/24/15 10:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 44
Alberta
IanInCalgary Offline
IanInCalgary  Offline

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 44
Alberta
Originally Posted By: exranger06
The link doesn't work. But the "S" in the ratings does not stand for "spark" ignition, and the "C" does not stand for "compression" ignition. That's a very common misconception. They actually stand for "service grade" and "commercial grade," respectively.


Although the current meanings of "S" and "C" are as you describe, they originally meant "spark" and "compression".

Ian

Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: BigCahuna] #3677066
03/24/15 11:18 PM
03/24/15 11:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 955
Ca USA
BusyLittleShop Offline
BusyLittleShop  Offline

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 955
Ca USA
Here are the 13 Diesel Oils that were tested by 540Rat. And they are
ranked in the order of their “Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength”
values:

1. RED LINE, 15W40 Diesel Oil, synthetic, API CJ-4/CI-4 PLUS/CI-4/CF/CH-4/CF-4/SM/SL/SH/EO-O
“Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 85,663 psi
zinc = 1615 ppm
phos = 1551 ppm
moly = 173 ppm
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = 2999 ppm
TBN = 8.3
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 285*

2. ROYAL PURPLE, 15W40 Diesel Oil, synthetic, API CJ-4 /SM, CI-4 PLUS, CH-4, CI-4
“Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 76,997 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = TBD
TBN = TBD
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 265*

3. MOBIL 1 TURBO DIESEL TRUCK, 5W40 synthetic, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4 and ACEA E7
“Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 74,312 psi
zinc = 1211 ppm
phos = 1168 ppm
moly = 2 ppm
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = 1596 ppm
TBN = 9.3
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 270*

4. CHEVRON DELO 400LE, 15W40 conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4, SM, SL, “Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 73,520 psi
zinc = 1519 ppm
phos = 1139 ppm
moly = 80 ppm
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = 2205 ppm
TBN = 8.0
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 265*

5. MOBIL DELVAC 1300 SUPER, 15W40 conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4/SM, SL , “Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 73,300 psi
zinc = 1297 ppm
phos = 944 ppm
moly = 46 ppm
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = 1843 ppm
TBN = 9.8
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 250*

6. Farm Rated 15W40 Heavy Duty Performance Diesel, conventional, API CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF/SL, SJ
“Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 73,176 psi
zinc = 1325 ppm
phos = 1234 ppm
moly = 2 ppm
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = 1593 ppm
TBN = 9.3
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 255*

7. SHELL ROTELLA T, 15W40 conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4,CF/SM
“Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 72,022 psi
zinc = 1454 ppm
phos = 1062 ppm
moly = 0 ppm
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = 2886 ppm
TBN = 9.1
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 250*

NOTE: This new Rotella T has SIGNIFICANTLY MORE zinc than the OLD
Rotella T, NOT LESS as is often claimed. And these two Rotella oils
were Lab tested more than a month apart. So, their component
quantities had no chance of being mixed up. This new Rotella’s wear
protection capability is just slightly BETTER than the OLD Rotella.
Therefore, the new Rotella is NOT the junk some have claimed.

8. “OLD” SHELL ROTELLA T, 15W40 conventional, API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4,CG-4,CF-4,CF,SL, SJ, SH
“Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 71,214 psi
zinc = 1171 ppm
phos = 1186 ppm
moly = 0 ppm
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = 2715 ppm
TBN = 10.1
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 250*

NOTE: There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING special about this OLD Rotella, as
so many have always claimed. That was only folklore. It is simply
ordinary Diesel oil.

9. VALVOLINE PREMIUM BLUE HEAVY DUTY DIESEL, 15W40 conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF/SM
“Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 70,869 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = TBD
TBN = TBD
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 255*

10. CHEVRON DELO 400LE, 5W40 synthetic, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, SL, SM,
“Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 69,631 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = TBD
TBN = TBD
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 255*

11. SHELL ROTELLA T6, 5W40 synthetic, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4/SM
“Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 67,804 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = TBD
TBN = TBD
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 260*

12. LUCAS 15W40 MAGNUM Diesel Oil, conventional, API CI-4,CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CF/SL
“Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 66,476 psi
zinc = 1441 ppm
phos = 1234 ppm
moly = 76 ppm
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = 3393 ppm
TBN = 11.7
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 250*

13. CASTROL GTX DIESEL, 15W40 conventional, API CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4/SN
“Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength” = 66,323 psi
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge TBD
TBN = TBD
The onset of thermal breakdown is approximately 265*

The average value for Thermal Breakdown among the conventional Diesel
oils here, was 255*, which is 17* LOWER than among the conventional
gas engine oils I’ve tested.

The average value for Thermal Breakdown among the synthetic Diesel
oils here, was 267*, which is 15* LOWER than among the synthetic gas
engine oils I’ve tested.

And as you can see with these Diesel oils above, zinc levels alone do
NOT establish their wear prevention ranking. The zinc levels are
randomly up and down, relative to the ranking order. And as you will
see in the link to my motor oil ranking list below, zinc levels
clearly have NOTHING to do with an oil’s protection capability or
ranking order. Also, anyone who has followed my motor oil testing this
year, probably noticed that these Diesel oil “Load Carrying
Capacity/Film Strength” psi values are rather low, with an average
value for the whole group of only 72,408 psi. This number would put an
oil for gasoline engines, only in the MODEST PROTECTION category
(60,000 to 75,000 psi).

And considering that these oils are intended for use in heavy duty
working Diesel engines as used in big rigs, bulldozers, locomotives,
etc, etc, you probably expected to see some rather impressive psi
numbers. But, if you were expecting that, you were obviously
disappointed and maybe even shocked. So, what’s going on here?

Obviously since all these diesel oil numbers are so closely clustered
together with only about a 20,000 psi range (compared to the gas
engine oil numbers which have a much larger range of almost 60,000
psi), it is clear that the oil companies intentionally formulated them
to be in this general range. Why would they do that? How can that be
good enough for these hard working diesel engines?

Diesel engines of this type are made very rugged and very durable for
the long haul. And in order to accomplish that, the engine’s
components are designed and sized to keep the part loading at a modest
level. And of course, these engines are known primarily for their
impressive low end torque under boost, but NOT for their high rpm HP.
All that being the case, these oils don’t need to have a higher
capability. And this type of Diesel engine typically takes a LOT OF
OIL. So, cost becomes a real factor when changing oil. This means that
no oil company is going to make their products way better than needed,
because that would make their products too expensive to be competitive
in the marketplace.

And no one can complain that my test equipment and test procedure do
not allow high zinc oils to perform at their highest level. Because
here are some high zinc (over 1100 ppm) conventional, semi-synthetic,
and full synthetic gasoline engine oils that I’ve tested previously.
And they all had test results over 90,000 psi, which put them in the
“OUTSTANDING PROTECTION” category for gasoline engines.

10W30 Lucas Racing Only, full synthetic = 106,505 psi
zinc = 2642 ppm
phos = 3489 ppm
moly = 1764 ppm

10W30 Valvoline NSL (Not Street Legal) Conventional Racing Oil = 103,846 psi
zinc = 1669 ppm
phos = 1518 ppm
moly = 784 ppm

10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi
zinc = 1472 ppm
phos = 1544 ppm
moly = 3 ppm

10W30 Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Racing Oil, API SL (black bottle) = 101,139 psi
zinc = 1180 ppm
phos = 1112 ppm
moly = 162 ppm

30 wt Red Line Race Oil, full synthetic = 96,470 psi
zinc = 2207 ppm
phos = 2052 ppm
moly = 1235 ppm

10W30 Amsoil Z-Rod Oil, full synthetic = 95,360 psi
zinc = 1431 ppm
phos = 1441 ppm
moly = 52 ppm

10W30 Quaker State Defy, API SL (semi-synthetic) = 90,226 psi
zinc = 1221 ppm
phos = 955 ppm
moly = 99 ppm

SUMMARY
Thermal Breakdown BEGINS SOONER with Diesel oil, than with gas
engine oils, which is not desirable for High Performance gas engine
usage. And as you can see by looking at this short list of “high zinc”
gas engine oils, or by looking at the complete ranking list below,
there are many, many gas engine oils available that are FAR SUPERIOR
to the best Diesel oils in terms of wear protection. Therefore, using
Diesel oils in high performance gas engines is NOT the best choice, if
you want superior wear protection with plenty of margin of safety
(extra reserve wear protection above what the engine typically needs).
For those who have used Diesel oil in High Performance gas engines for
years without issue, you were able to do that only because the wear
protection required by the engines, never happened to exceed the oil’s
capability. But, you were clearly running a MUCH LOWER margin of
safety than you would have been, if you’d used a much more capable gas
engine oil instead. So, if you’ve been using Diesel oil in High
Performance gas engines, you may want to rethink what you’ve been
doing and consider upgrading to one of the far better gas engine oils.

CONCLUSION
The bottom line is that the end user does NOT know more about motor
oil than the Oil Companies’ Chemical Engineers and Chemists. So, the
BEST choice is to use only quality gas engine oil in High Performance
gas engines. These oils offer MUCH HIGHER wear protection capability
and can withstand somewhat higher temperatures before the onset of
Thermal Breakdown. Leave the less capable Diesel oils for use only in
Diesel engines, where they are meant to be used.


Larry L
Have a Wheelie NICE day
94 RC45 #2 58,000 on 30 weights Currently Mobil 1 5W30
2002 Camaro Mobil 1 0W30
1952 De Havilland Chipmunk



Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: BigCahuna] #3677096
03/25/15 12:07 AM
03/25/15 12:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,653
Central IA
Robenstein Offline
Robenstein  Offline

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,653
Central IA
Of course all those tests do not test diesel oils with the proper speced viscosity for a Harley unless you are riding in temps below 40 degrees Fahrenheit.


2011 Triumph Speedmaster
1986 Chevy Monte Carlo SS
1970 Chevy Nova
2006 Scion TC
Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: BigCahuna] #3677291
03/25/15 07:36 AM
03/25/15 07:36 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 257
Florida
SJohnson Offline
SJohnson  Offline

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 257
Florida
BusyLittleShop, do you have a link to the testing done by 540Rat?



In God we trust, all others bring data.
Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: BigCahuna] #3677310
03/25/15 07:51 AM
03/25/15 07:51 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,996
South Carolina
alarmguy Offline
alarmguy  Offline

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,996
South Carolina
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
To bring some of you up to speed about Harley oil here's some interesting info. While Harley's oil that's sold thru their dealership network is highly recommended by Harley for use in their motorcycles,does not carry an API symbol. They just say it's the oil to use and charge premium $$$ for it. That also goes for about every other motorcycle specific oil sold. Amsoil, Mobil 1 V-Twin oil, Valvoline ect. They say it meets a SG spec and is GL-1 rated, but only they test it. So why does Harley recommend an diesel oil that carries a higher spec then their own oil, when there are oils available that have proven to be of better quality or at the very least, as good as their own?. Soot and combustion gases have never been a issue with Harley's like they are with diesel motors, so why would this oil be preferred over any 20/50 wt with a SG rating?.,,


Here are my thoughts, keep in mind now, I am not stating anything as fact, just my feelings on your post and why I will/am doing what I am regarding oil unless I feel otherwise.

I suspect and am sure that Harley oil is simply a diesel type oil formulated the way Harley wants it to perform in Harleys engines. I think its safe to say Harley oil is a "boutique oil" designed the way it is to lubricate their engines with the least problems.
We all think of measuring oil for the least amount of wear in a UOA however what does that really mean and is it really possible to look at a VERY limited UOA and decide which oil is better?
We look at wear numbers and even then, most wear numbers from most oils will mean nothing,
unless something is really out of whack, we are splitting hairs when it comes to wear, never mind how that particular rider rides the bike and what conditions.
But what if Harley (and all makers) are more concerned with deposits in the engine, varnish, sludge. Maybe they are more concerned about bearings, to me, its seems like a [censored] of a lot more problems with bad bearings in engines and transmissions then the cylinder walls wearing down.

I do not think Harley recommends a spec higher then their own, I think they recommend a spec (C Rated Diesel oil) because it most closely matches what Harley oil is designed from and many of the same objectives as diesel oil.

Again, this is what I personally feel, also, and I am not sure about other bikes, but on Harleys (like diesel engines, I think) when the engine is running, the underside of the pistons are sprayed with oil to help cool the pistons, as (again, I think) diesel engines are. But even if I am incorrect on part of this paragraph, I think Harley is more concerned with proper lubrication through the whole engine and deposits blocking oil flow to bearings etc.

More or less want a squeaky clean engine, which diesel oil will do. Its this part of your first post that I think is more important to Harley then wear, as wear in these engines will not be an issue as much as failed bearings and engine deposits which can also add to problems in the long term, so if they can keep the engine clean, it will last a LONG useful life, versus, making an oil to show a great UOA and a low wear number for a UOA that will have no bearing on the useful life of the engine. Also, lets face it, V-Twin engines have been out since the beginning of time, its an old design brought up to todays standards. But, even though we like to believe otherwise, v-twin engines just lumber and thump along much like they always did vs 8,000+ rpm sport bikes engines which may need a different set of oil requirements.

In your first post, I took out these words for the CH4 classification and this is what I think is the most important part for Harley and want an oil with these properties, the only way to insure it is to recommend it.

"CH-4 oils provide superior control over high temperature piston deposits, wear, corrosion, foaming, oxidation stability"

I believe Harley is more concerned about the above then anything else and that is what a C rated oil is made for. Also in your first post, it does mention gasoline engines where the maker is concerned about these issues.

With all the above said, does this mean, in my mind, that quality oils like Castrol, Valvoline, Mobile and Amsoil will be inferior for a Harley engine even if they are not C rated? Not at all. But as an engine maker, you can choose a classification in oils that you know, across the spectrum will be ok for the engine no matter the brand, where as some lessor known oils with the S (automobile) classification maybe inferior.

Last edited by alarmguy; 03/25/15 07:58 AM.

14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50
Re: Can anyone explain why Harley recommends a diesel [Re: SJohnson] #3677330
03/25/15 08:18 AM
03/25/15 08:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,996
South Carolina
alarmguy Offline
alarmguy  Offline

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,996
South Carolina
Originally Posted By: SJohnson
I believe it's all about marketing. Why would Harley recommend a 20/50 oil from a different manufacturer? That would cut into their market share. Try and find a readily available 20/50 that meets the latest HDEO spec. They are few and far between. Since most people want to run a 20/50 in their Harley and Harley recommends their 20/50 first and then a HDEO 15/40 second, I believe most people will opt for Harley oil. Unlike PCMO and HDEO, there is no spec for "MC specific" oil. So Harley recommends their 20/50. It's all about marketing and the bottom line. I'm sure if it wasn't working out for them, they would change. I guess they figure if it ain't broke, don't fix it.


I dont disagree with you, what you said, is entirely, entirely possible, I too am a skeptic. But here are some other thoughts.

Without question, companies are in business to make money, we can not blame them for that, none of us would have jobs if they werent.

Making HD oil hard to match does bring in huge amounts of money to the motor company, but to me, its not in the profit of the oil, its in the profit of the showroom traffic it creates.

By keeping showroom traffic up, guess what?, we sell more and more bikes AND more and more accessories and parts. Its kind of like a supermarket, deli, gas station selling milk, we think its expensive but trust me on this, the markup stinks, its always in the back of the supermarket so you buy other stuff on the way to and from the milk display.

HD oil brings people in the showroom, you walk right by all those nice new bikes and accessory's, can you imagine how many people buy new bikes and parts every single year by walking in the showroom to buy HD oil?

I dont think HD sells the amount of oil we think it does where it is super cost effective compared to companies like Mobile, Valvoline, Castrol, Amsoil which produce huge amounts of products. I do look at HD as a more Boutique oil priced more like Amsoil. You can buy HD conventional at much lower cost then Amsoil or buy HD Syn at a higher cost then Amsoil but not that much higher.

With that said, after searching forever, I have found two other oils, if I choose that I can use other then HD in the 20/50 weight and rated "C" which they want.
One is Amsoil, makes a 20/50 Diesel oil (11.99) and (based on someone elses post) Mystik 15/50 diesel rated oil, which ironically is also produced by a Citgo company that also makes Harley oil.
The Mystik 15/50 carries the rating HD wants and cost $34.99 for 2 gallons in Orielly Autoparts, thats less then $4.50 a quart without a sale or $17.99 a gallon.

There MAYBE another reason for HD recommended oil, maybe its possible they are more concerned with bearing skid from a too slippery oil. I have no idea but I do think, not just Harley, it cant hurt to stick with what they recommend and if you do, youll be good to go, as again, I think more engine issues are with bearings, cam wear etc, then anything else and maybe why they recommend what they do.
I do believe like we all do, you can do better for your dollar but we are not the typical joe public and recommendations have to be based on joe public to insure long engine life. I also believe Castrol 20/50, Mobile, Valvoline Amsoil area all good. For me personally, right now anyway with less then 3000 miles on my bike there is no reason to use them as I can use HD360 a $8 a quart and it produces really good UOAs if you want to measure it that way or choose Mystik 15/50 and see how it does or who knows, maybe Amsoils Diesel oil..

Last edited by alarmguy; 03/25/15 08:32 AM.

14 Road King (current)
08 VStar 1300 Tourer
07 Suzuki C50
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™