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#3625472 - 02/07/15 07:27 AM High VI and Base Stocks
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 18234
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
With all the hoopla about high VI being the holy grail of engine oils i found this interesting.
When one poster claims TGMO to be the best because it has higher VI than say Mobil 1 or PP/PU it seems he may be ignoring the effects of the base stock.

Quote:
Viscosity Index/Improver Additives

Viscosity Index (VI) is the term used to rate a base oil or an oil products ability to resist thickening and thinning with temperature change. These VI improvers are typically thin straight polymers, or polymers that “unwind” and straighten out at higher temperatures. This helps to maintain a more consistent viscosity of a wider range of temperatures. But, typical VI improving additives are far more fragile than the base oil and are easily sheared in half under a variety of operating conditions. HD diesel applications use VI improvers that are more durable. And, higher grade base stocks have less need for VI improvers. Some top tier synthetic oil products meet SAE 5W-30 ratings without any VI improvers.


http://www.diagnosticnews.com/oil-additives-supplements/
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#3625483 - 02/07/15 07:47 AM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav]
Oil Changer Offline


Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 2297
Loc: Michigan
I'd like to know which of those 5W-30s have no VII.

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#3625498 - 02/07/15 08:02 AM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Oil Changer]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 18234
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
I didn't see mention of VII just VI.
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#3625512 - 02/07/15 08:15 AM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 35561
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Trav
I didn't see mention of VII just VI.

You didn't see the words "VI improvers" in the text you quoted? smile


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#3625561 - 02/07/15 09:25 AM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Oil Changer]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 35978
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I'd like to know which of those 5W-30s have no VII.


Redline 5w-30 for one.
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#3625590 - 02/07/15 09:59 AM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav]
webfors Offline


Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 4809
Loc: Great White North.. eh
Might be why AFE has a less than impressive V index, yet great cold flow specs.
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#3625594 - 02/07/15 10:00 AM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: webfors]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 35978
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: webfors
Might be why AFE has a less than impressive V index, yet great cold flow specs.


Likely. And same goes for the EP 0w-20 with its big slug of PAO in it IMHO.
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#3625667 - 02/07/15 11:24 AM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Quattro Pete]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 18234
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Trav
I didn't see mention of VII just VI.

You didn't see the words "VI improvers" in the text you quoted? smile



Yep i see it now. Don't get exited, i lose somethings in translation.
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#3625673 - 02/07/15 11:36 AM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav]
HTSS_TR Offline


Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 19528
Loc: Lake Forest, CA
I think higher VI with minimum or no VII is better than one with high VII. As mentioned by OVERKILL, M1 0w20 EP is a good 20 weight oil with higher PAO contain than other M1 weight. Especially when Walmart had it for $21-22 5-qt jug some months ago.
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#3625715 - 02/07/15 12:32 PM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav]
KrisZ Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7273
Loc: Toronto, Canada
This is pretty interesting stuff, thanks or sharing.
Incidentally, lately I've been digging around for info on cold oil properties and how they change in used oils. Here is an interesting article on pour point depressants. It's interesting to note that there are many PPDs and they are all affected differently by usage.
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTMzNHxDaGlsZElEPS0xfFR5cGU9Mw==&t=1

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#3625791 - 02/07/15 02:12 PM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 35978
Loc: Ontario, Canada
That PAO chart says a lot......
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#3625839 - 02/07/15 03:02 PM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav]
bobbydavro Offline


Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 515
Loc: 3rd rock from the sun
Yeah says PAOs don't have wax. Group III do and that's why you use PPD

No oil can be a multi grade without a VII. Otherwise it's just a monograde.

Any finished oil with s VI over the VI of the base oil will have VII

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#3625843 - 02/07/15 03:06 PM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: bobbydavro]
OVERKILL Offline


Registered: 04/28/08
Posts: 35978
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Yeah says PAOs don't have wax. Group III do and that's why you use PPD

No oil can be a multi grade without a VII. Otherwise it's just a monograde.

Any finished oil with s VI over the VI of the base oil will have VII


Sure it can, if it satisfies the requirements for both 5W and SAE 30, then it can be labelled as an SAE 30 straight grade, or a 5w-30.

AMSOIL has a 10w-30 that is an SAE 30 for the same reason: No VII's. This is the same as Redline's 5w-30.

It isn't overly common, but these products do exist.
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#3625975 - 02/07/15 05:43 PM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 38963
Loc: 'Stralia
Timely thread Trav, as I've been piecing together some cogent arguments for 3-4 days to start a thread, will throw them in here.

KrisZ has an interesting opener for this little chart from Conoco Phillips.



Quote:
PAOs have inherently high viscosity indexes (VI) while maintaining excellent low-temperature performance. Both properties are critical in protecting engines at temperature extremes. Low temperatures can rob a lubricant of its ability to reach critical parts, while high temperatures can thin and break down an oil, crippling its lubricating ability.

However, two different lubricants with the same viscosity index may perform dramatically differently at low temperatures. Other factors shown on the chart below need to be considered.


Note, two basestocks, same KV40 and KV100, and thus the same dimensionless number for VI of 140...and they behave markedly different when they get cold...the PAO meets 0W, the GrIII probably 10W, requiring additive intervention.

Takeaway for me is that VI shouldn't be used to decide what's good (actually, I DO use VI, anything with a stratospheric VII without a good reason (e.g. basestock), I avoid like the plague).

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#3625992 - 02/07/15 06:10 PM Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 38963
Loc: 'Stralia
Looking at the Afton additive treat charts for their HiTech 5710 Polymethacrylate VII/dispersant.



Looks like there's a number of ways to make a 30 grade oil according to the chart (note there's no HTHS, so the first may well not be a 30)

3cst base oil and 10% 5710 polymer, KV100 10.84, VI 262 - almost certainly a 0W.
4.1cst base oil, (about) 7-8% 5710, and a VI over 200 - again almost certainly a 0W
5cst base oil, 5% polymer, KV100 10.07, VI 176. Probably still a 0W.

Again reinforces my view that I avoid unicorn type VIs, as the last of the recipes will be naturally less volatile, more shear stable, and likely retain it's viscosity, less thickening or thinning better through the OCI.

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