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High VI and Base Stocks #3625472
02/07/15 07:27 AM
02/07/15 07:27 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,779
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline OP
Trav  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,779
MA, Mittelfranken.de
With all the hoopla about high VI being the holy grail of engine oils i found this interesting.
When one poster claims TGMO to be the best because it has higher VI than say Mobil 1 or PP/PU it seems he may be ignoring the effects of the base stock.

Quote:
Viscosity Index/Improver Additives

Viscosity Index (VI) is the term used to rate a base oil or an oil products ability to resist thickening and thinning with temperature change. These VI improvers are typically thin straight polymers, or polymers that “unwind” and straighten out at higher temperatures. This helps to maintain a more consistent viscosity of a wider range of temperatures. But, typical VI improving additives are far more fragile than the base oil and are easily sheared in half under a variety of operating conditions. HD diesel applications use VI improvers that are more durable. And, higher grade base stocks have less need for VI improvers. Some top tier synthetic oil products meet SAE 5W-30 ratings without any VI improvers.


http://www.diagnosticnews.com/oil-additives-supplements/


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav] #3625483
02/07/15 07:47 AM
02/07/15 07:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,297
Michigan
Oil Changer Offline
Oil Changer  Offline
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,297
Michigan
I'd like to know which of those 5W-30s have no VII.

Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Oil Changer] #3625498
02/07/15 08:02 AM
02/07/15 08:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,779
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline OP
Trav  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,779
MA, Mittelfranken.de
I didn't see mention of VII just VI.


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav] #3625512
02/07/15 08:15 AM
02/07/15 08:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,772
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,772
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: Trav
I didn't see mention of VII just VI.

You didn't see the words "VI improvers" in the text you quoted? smile




'02 530i (Edge 0W-40)
'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
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Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Oil Changer] #3625561
02/07/15 09:25 AM
02/07/15 09:25 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,278
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,278
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Oil Changer
I'd like to know which of those 5W-30s have no VII.


Redline 5w-30 for one.


2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav] #3625590
02/07/15 09:59 AM
02/07/15 09:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,082
Great White North.. eh
webfors Offline
webfors  Offline
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,082
Great White North.. eh
Might be why AFE has a less than impressive V index, yet great cold flow specs.


17 Cadillac ATS 2.0T, Edge D1G2 5w30, XG10575
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15 DL650, Rotella T6 5w40, KN-138
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Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: webfors] #3625594
02/07/15 10:00 AM
02/07/15 10:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,278
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,278
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: webfors
Might be why AFE has a less than impressive V index, yet great cold flow specs.


Likely. And same goes for the EP 0w-20 with its big slug of PAO in it IMHO.


2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Quattro Pete] #3625667
02/07/15 11:24 AM
02/07/15 11:24 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,779
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline OP
Trav  Offline OP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,779
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Trav
I didn't see mention of VII just VI.

You didn't see the words "VI improvers" in the text you quoted? smile



Yep i see it now. Don't get exited, i lose somethings in translation.


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav] #3625673
02/07/15 11:36 AM
02/07/15 11:36 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 19,528
Lake Forest, CA
HTSS_TR Offline
HTSS_TR  Offline
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 19,528
Lake Forest, CA
I think higher VI with minimum or no VII is better than one with high VII. As mentioned by OVERKILL, M1 0w20 EP is a good 20 weight oil with higher PAO contain than other M1 weight. Especially when Walmart had it for $21-22 5-qt jug some months ago.


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"Throwing food away is like stealing it from the poor and hungry" Pope Francis
Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav] #3625715
02/07/15 12:32 PM
02/07/15 12:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,194
Canuck living in California
KrisZ Offline
KrisZ  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,194
Canuck living in California
This is pretty interesting stuff, thanks or sharing.
Incidentally, lately I've been digging around for info on cold oil properties and how they change in used oils. Here is an interesting article on pour point depressants. It's interesting to note that there are many PPDs and they are all affected differently by usage.
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTMzNHxDaGlsZElEPS0xfFR5cGU9Mw==&t=1



2015 Dodge Grand Caravan-30k miles.
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Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav] #3625791
02/07/15 02:12 PM
02/07/15 02:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,278
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,278
Ontario, Canada
That PAO chart says a lot......


2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav] #3625839
02/07/15 03:02 PM
02/07/15 03:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 516
3rd rock from the sun
bobbydavro Offline
bobbydavro  Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 516
3rd rock from the sun
Yeah says PAOs don't have wax. Group III do and that's why you use PPD

No oil can be a multi grade without a VII. Otherwise it's just a monograde.

Any finished oil with s VI over the VI of the base oil will have VII

Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: bobbydavro] #3625843
02/07/15 03:06 PM
02/07/15 03:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,278
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 38,278
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: bobbydavro
Yeah says PAOs don't have wax. Group III do and that's why you use PPD

No oil can be a multi grade without a VII. Otherwise it's just a monograde.

Any finished oil with s VI over the VI of the base oil will have VII


Sure it can, if it satisfies the requirements for both 5W and SAE 30, then it can be labelled as an SAE 30 straight grade, or a 5w-30.

AMSOIL has a 10w-30 that is an SAE 30 for the same reason: No VII's. This is the same as Redline's 5w-30.

It isn't overly common, but these products do exist.


2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav] #3625975
02/07/15 05:43 PM
02/07/15 05:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,966
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,966
'Stralia
Timely thread Trav, as I've been piecing together some cogent arguments for 3-4 days to start a thread, will throw them in here.

KrisZ has an interesting opener for this little chart from Conoco Phillips.



Quote:
PAOs have inherently high viscosity indexes (VI) while maintaining excellent low-temperature performance. Both properties are critical in protecting engines at temperature extremes. Low temperatures can rob a lubricant of its ability to reach critical parts, while high temperatures can thin and break down an oil, crippling its lubricating ability.

However, two different lubricants with the same viscosity index may perform dramatically differently at low temperatures. Other factors shown on the chart below need to be considered.


Note, two basestocks, same KV40 and KV100, and thus the same dimensionless number for VI of 140...and they behave markedly different when they get cold...the PAO meets 0W, the GrIII probably 10W, requiring additive intervention.

Takeaway for me is that VI shouldn't be used to decide what's good (actually, I DO use VI, anything with a stratospheric VII without a good reason (e.g. basestock), I avoid like the plague).

Re: High VI and Base Stocks [Re: Trav] #3625992
02/07/15 06:10 PM
02/07/15 06:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,966
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,966
'Stralia
Looking at the Afton additive treat charts for their HiTech 5710 Polymethacrylate VII/dispersant.



Looks like there's a number of ways to make a 30 grade oil according to the chart (note there's no HTHS, so the first may well not be a 30)

3cst base oil and 10% 5710 polymer, KV100 10.84, VI 262 - almost certainly a 0W.
4.1cst base oil, (about) 7-8% 5710, and a VI over 200 - again almost certainly a 0W
5cst base oil, 5% polymer, KV100 10.07, VI 176. Probably still a 0W.

Again reinforces my view that I avoid unicorn type VIs, as the last of the recipes will be naturally less volatile, more shear stable, and likely retain it's viscosity, less thickening or thinning better through the OCI.

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