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Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2228125
04/10/11 02:41 PM
04/10/11 02:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,513
Pennsylbammyvania
dailydriver Offline
dailydriver  Offline

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,513
Pennsylbammyvania
Originally Posted By: dparm
Correct, group 5-rich basestocks. Nothing is shear-proof, and everyone here is a bit OCD, right? ;-)


With the various grades of 300V, I seriously doubt you have ANYTHING to worry about, even in a stressed, open tracked, boosted app.
(Like Harman, if it were not sooo prohibitively priced {at ~ $5.00-$8.00/liter MORE THAN what I pay for RL!!}, I would be using it as well.)

Caterham has a point about the high VIs letting you get on it sooner, but warm up can take care of this, and I would rather have a more shear stable, with a guaranteed NO ADDED VIIs, group 5 basestock for anything more than multiple 15 minute open track sessions, myself. wink


2016 Ford Fiesta ST 17K miles
Ravenol REP 5W-30
Fram XG3600 filter
Ravenol MTF-2 in the IB6 transaxle
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dailydriver] #2228145
04/10/11 03:08 PM
04/10/11 03:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,140
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
CATERHAM Offline
CATERHAM  Offline

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,140
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Actually being able to predict how an oil holds up in service is a rough guide at best; there are so many variables involved and how one oil behaves in one application may differ from another.

One indisputable fact is that the higher the natural VI the better, and the best GP IV & V formulations now have natural VI's over 170 although they are expensive. But the better VII's are making there way into race oils and high performance street oils as the advantages of as high a VI as possible is undeniable.
Technology doesn't stand still and I'm sure VI's over of over 200 will become increasingly more common as time marches on..


-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50 & VSOT
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
-'18 Tesla Model 3 - FF diff' oil
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2228287
04/10/11 06:10 PM
04/10/11 06:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,556
Plano, TX
dparm Offline OP
dparm  Offline OP

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 13,556
Plano, TX
Well we have gear oils with VIs of 200+ already. My Motul Gear 300 is 222. Idemitsu has one that's 210.


2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #2228323
04/10/11 06:46 PM
04/10/11 06:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,140
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
CATERHAM Offline
CATERHAM  Offline

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,140
Burlington, Ontario, Canada
All the Japanese 0EM 0W-20 have 200+ VI's as does CAM II 0W-20.
RL 0W-40 is close at 197, and their are a number of other 190+ VI oils such as ENEOS 0W-50 (VI 192) and RLI 0W-30 (VI 193).
The good news with these modern oils is that they retain at least 90% of their virgin VI in service.


-'74 Lotus Europa, 5W-50 & VSOT
-'96 BMW 328i, 50/50 TGMO 0W-20/M1 0W-40
-'94 Caterham 7, FUCHS 0W-20
-'18 Tesla Model 3 - FF diff' oil
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: CATERHAM] #2230876
04/13/11 08:33 AM
04/13/11 08:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,307
Michigan
A_Harman Offline
A_Harman  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,307
Michigan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If someone really wants to know, send me a gallon of each and I'll be more than happy to confirm it!


OK, I get it now, you'll run the Motul in the Caterham calibrated 4-wheel viscometer! smile
(It only took me 5 days to figure it out.) Good scam to get a couple of $60 oil changes for free!


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: A_Harman] #3552049
12/01/14 04:43 AM
12/01/14 04:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,127
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43,127
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I've been doing a more involved calculation to get a feel for the shear resistance of an oil:

1. Plug the KV40 and KV100 numbers into the Widman Operational Viscosity calculator, and calculate a KV150 number.
2. Take the density at 15C, and multiply by 0.9 to get an estimate for density at 150c.
3. Multiply the numbers from steps 1 and 2 to get a dynamic viscosity at 150c.
4. Divide HTHS by the DV150 number from step 3. This gives the fraction of HTHS to the expected dynamic viscosity of an oil at 150C. The higher the better. POE oils such as Redline and Motul are pretty close to 1.0.


Quoted for the bump !!!

Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: Shannow] #3552113
12/01/14 08:30 AM
12/01/14 08:30 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,307
Michigan
A_Harman Offline
A_Harman  Offline

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,307
Michigan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I've been doing a more involved calculation to get a feel for the shear resistance of an oil:

1. Plug the KV40 and KV100 numbers into the Widman Operational Viscosity calculator, and calculate a KV150 number.
2. Take the density at 15C, and multiply by 0.9 to get an estimate for density at 150c.
3. Multiply the numbers from steps 1 and 2 to get a dynamic viscosity at 150c.
4. Divide HTHS by the DV150 number from step 3. This gives the fraction of HTHS to the expected dynamic viscosity of an oil at 150C. The higher the better. POE oils such as Redline and Motul are pretty close to 1.0.


Quoted for the bump !!!


Slight change in the calculation: Use .885 instead of .90 for the density correction from 15C to 150C. This improves the density estimate slightly.


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #4827039
07/30/18 07:54 PM
07/30/18 07:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,250
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline
JAG  Offline

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,250
Fredericksburg, VA
Here is an interesting one: Amsoil Briggs & Stratton Synthetic 4T Racing Oil
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/m...-4t-racing-oil/
KV100: 11.6
KV40: 72.2
Density: 0.9059 (very dense; I think it has a lot of ester and/or PAG)
HTHS: 4.2
KV150: 4.82
Density correction factor: 0.885
Harman Index: 1.02

Compare that one to the two Amsoil oils below.

Amsoil Z-Rod 10W-30
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/gasoline/z-rod-10w-30-synthetic-motor-oil/
11.8
74.9
0.8644
3.6
4.87
0.885
Harman Index: 0.835

Amsoil Signature Series 10W-30
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/m...etic-motor-oil/

10.0
62.3
0.8644
3.11
4.19
0.885
Harman Index: 0.839

Viscosity calculator used: http://www.nimacltd.co.uk/viscosity-calc...wo-temperatures

Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #4827909
07/31/18 06:10 PM
07/31/18 06:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,372
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,372
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: JAG
Here is an interesting one: Amsoil Briggs & Stratton Synthetic 4T Racing Oil
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/m...-4t-racing-oil/
KV100: 11.6
KV40: 72.2
Density: 0.9059 (very dense; I think it has a lot of ester and/or PAG)
HTHS: 4.2
KV150: 4.82
Density correction factor: 0.885
Harman Index: 1.02

Compare that one to the two Amsoil oils below.

Amsoil Z-Rod 10W-30
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/gasoline/z-rod-10w-30-synthetic-motor-oil/
11.8
74.9
0.8644
3.6
4.87
0.885
Harman Index: 0.835

Amsoil Signature Series 10W-30
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/m...etic-motor-oil/

10.0
62.3
0.8644
3.11
4.19
0.885
Harman Index: 0.839

Viscosity calculator used: http://www.nimacltd.co.uk/viscosity-calc...wo-temperatures

Correcting:

A_Harman index = HTHSV / (KV150 * density @ 15 C * 0.885)
(KV150 is extrapolated using the Widman operational-viscosity calculator or such. The factor 0.885 is for the density extrapolation.)

Amsoil Briggs & Stratton Synthetic 4T Racing Oil
A_Harman index = 1.09
(Since A_Harman index can't be greater than 1, something is obviously wrong here. Assuming that all the data is correct, the culprit would be the viscosity and/or density extrapolation to 150 C.)

Amsoil Z-Rod 10W-30
A_Harman index = 0.966

Amsoil Signature Series 10W-30
A_Harman index = 0.970


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 275,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: Gokhan] #4827915
07/31/18 06:17 PM
07/31/18 06:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,372
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,372
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: dparm
Trying to make absolutely certain I understand this correctly.

Oils with large viscosity spreads (5w50, for example) require very good basestocks and/or VIIs. And in general, those VIIs will lead to shearing under extreme conditions, such as sustained WOT. This is because the VIIs breakdown under load.

Conversely, oils with small viscosity spreads (5w20, for example) do not require as good of a basestock and/or fewer VIIs. Since there is less reliance on VIIs, the oil is generally more shear stable.

Correct?

Trying to get clarity as the weather warms here and racing season begins for my DD. Thinking a move to 10w40 might be more prudent now, and leave the 5w30/5w40 for the winter. HTHS is a very important number for racing conditions, but shearing is still a concern.

The 10w40 I am considering has a slightly lower HTHS and VI than the 5w40 (4.19 vs 4.51, and 161 vs 196, respectively), but I would assume it is much more shear stable oil and better suited to racing.

The viscosity-index improver (VII), viscosity index (VI) of the base oil, and A_Harman index are back!

Below is a table for some A_Harman indexes I calculated. Note that A_Harman index only measures the temporary high-shear-viscosity loss resulting from the temporary VII shear (in high shear regions of the engine such as the bearings) and not the permanent viscosity loss from permanent VII shear and/or total VII content (unsheared + temporarily sheared + permanently sheared).

In summary, PAO and GTL do best in the A_Harman index.

For your racing application, I recommend Pennzoil Platinum Euro with PurePlus 5W-40. It should have a good A_Harman index and a high HTHSV. Of course, you can always upgrade to Amsoil if you like.

A_Harman index = HTHSV / (KV150 * density @ 15 C * 0.885)
(KV150 is extrapolated using the Widman operational-viscosity calculator or such. The factor 0.885 is for the density extrapolation.)

Here is the Excel file (link) for the table.

Code:
Oil	       Density	KV40	 KV100	KV150	HTHSV	VI	DV150	A_Harman index

Delvac 15W-40 CK-4/SN	0.874	109.00	 14.10 	 5.32 	4.10		4.11	0.996
M1 AP 5W-20	        0.850	48.88	 8.20 	 3.53 	2.60	141	2.66	0.979
PPPP 10W-30	        0.841	60.50	 10.10 	 4.29 	3.10	151	3.19	0.971
M1 HM 5W-20	        0.856	50.00	 8.60 	 3.72 	2.70	150	2.82	0.958
Shell Rotella T4 15W-40	0.878	113.72	 14.84 	 5.68 	4.20		4.41	0.952
M1 EP 0W-20	        0.839	44.90	 8.60 	 3.85 	2.70	173	2.86	0.944
PPPP 5W-30 dexos1 Gen 2	0.839	53.90	 9.80 	 4.28 	3.00	170	3.18	0.944
PPPP 5W-30	        0.839	53.90	 9.80 	 4.28 	3.00	170	3.18	0.944
M1 5W-20	        0.852	49.80	 8.90 	 3.89 	2.75	160	2.93	0.938
M1 EP 5W-20	        0.850	49.60	 8.90 	 3.90 	2.75	161	2.93	0.937
Amsoil SS 5W-30	        0.855	59.70	 10.30 	 4.41 	3.11		3.34	0.932
M1 0W-20	        0.841	44.80	 8.70 	 3.91 	2.70	177	2.91	0.928
M1 HM 10W-30	        0.861	78.00	 12.10 	 4.96 	3.50		3.78	0.926
Amsoil XL 5W-30	        0.855	62.90	 11.10 	 4.77 	3.30		3.61	0.914
M1 AP 0W-20	        0.840	45.69	 8.70 	 3.89 	2.60	172	2.89	0.899
PUPPP 5W-30	        0.841	56.30	 10.30 	 4.50 	3.00	173	3.35	0.896
M1 EP 5W-30	        0.851	59.80	 10.60 	 4.57 	3.00	169	3.44	0.872
Pennzoil HM 10W-30	0.871	78.80	 11.80 	 4.79 	3.20	144	3.69	0.867
M1 FS 0W-40	        0.846	70.80	 12.90 	 5.56 	3.60	185	4.16	0.865
Rotella T6 5W-40 CJ-4	0.858	86.94	 14.09 	 5.80 	3.80		4.40	0.863
M1 5W-30	        0.855	61.70	 11.00 	 4.75 	3.10	172	3.59	0.862
M1 ESP Formula 0W-40	0.841	69.00	 12.90 	 5.61 	3.53	191	4.18	0.845
TGMO 0W-20 SN MSDS	0.851	36.10	 8.50 	 4.09 	2.60	225	3.08	0.844
M1 AP 5W-30	        0.851	67.52	 11.24 	 4.74 	3.00	160	3.57	0.840
TGMO 0W-20 SN VOA	0.851	36.16	 8.79 	 4.27 	2.60	236	3.22	0.808
M1 HM 10W-40	        0.860	107.00	 16.00 	 6.37 	3.90		4.85	0.804
M1 HM 5W-30	        0.856	72.00	 12.10 	 5.09 	3.10	151	3.86	0.804
M1 HM 5W-30	        0.856	72.00	 12.10 	 5.09 	3.10	166	3.86	0.804


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 275,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #4827940
07/31/18 06:49 PM
07/31/18 06:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,250
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline
JAG  Offline

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,250
Fredericksburg, VA
Thank you, Gokhan for correcting my errors. I did that all using my phone and apparently it was beyond my capabilities at the time. I heard that little voice in the back of my head saying that I am making mistakes. As usual, that voice was correct.

Yeah, anything over 1 indicates that one or more of the input values has error(s). Well, that is the case as long as the oil is not a shear thickening fluid. Ive never heard of a base oil or motor oil having a shear thickening property. Ive only ever heard of Newtonian and shear thinning behavior for such fluids.

Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #4827984
07/31/18 07:49 PM
07/31/18 07:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 938
WA
OilUzer Offline
OilUzer  Offline

Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 938
WA
basic question if it has not already been answered 40 times crzy

can you compare A_Harman index of different weight oil (e.g. 5Wx30 vs. 0Wx20) or would it meaningless like comparing apples and oranges?

I am assuming it is not a universal index and it is best to compare similar weight oils! no?

Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #4828090
07/31/18 09:37 PM
07/31/18 09:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,250
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline
JAG  Offline

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,250
Fredericksburg, VA
You can compare across viscosity grades but know that there is a trend of oils with wider spreads of viscosity grades having lower Harman Index. There are exceptions to that trend. It answers the question of how much is its dynamic viscosity reduced at 150 C temperature and 1e6/sec. shear rate, resulting from shear thinning. If it is truly 1.0, it is a Newtonian fluid, by definition. If its 0.8, it loses 20% of its dynamic viscosity due to shear thinning at that temperature and shear rate.

Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: dparm] #4828134
07/31/18 11:35 PM
07/31/18 11:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 938
WA
OilUzer Offline
OilUzer  Offline

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Posts: 938
WA
Just curious, what is the Harman index for single grade oil for example SAE30. I assume there is no vii in it!
Is the index 1 or perfect (if there a such thing) or not applicable? The sae30 still shears. no?

Re: Viscosity spread & VI vs shearing [Re: OilUzer] #4828143
08/01/18 01:04 AM
08/01/18 01:04 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,372
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,372
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: OilUzer
basic question if it has not already been answered 40 times crzy

can you compare A_Harman index of different weight oil (e.g. 5Wx30 vs. 0Wx20) or would it meaningless like comparing apples and oranges?

I am assuming it is not a universal index and it is best to compare similar weight oils! no?

Yup, in fact A_Harman index is often used for comparing different viscosity grades.

It measures the temporary shear of the viscosity-index improver (VII) in high-temperature, high-shear (HTHS) conditions. You can loosely relate it to the amount of the VII present. You can then loosely relate that to permanent oil shear.

Caveats:

(1) The two extrapolations to 150 C done for the viscosity and density can have errors.

(2) Different types of VII's shear in different rates. Therefore, if you had, say, 10% VII in two separate oils but they were different types of VII's, you could get different A_Harman indexes for the two oils. Nevertheless, this still makes the A_Harman index useful for getting a sense for the overall effect of the VII's.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 275,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
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