toyota 86 oil question

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I suspect 0W-20 is specified along with the option of some heavier grades which is a common pattern in Europe.

Oh i see, so you admit there might be a situation to use the higher viscosity oil.
If that was the case you just made my point. It obviously means the engine requires higher viscosity when operated at high speeds.

Just like the Subaru manuals did in the US. You are trying to promote a product for uses it was never intended for.
Telling a guy in Australia to track his car on TGMO is reckless at best.


First for the record it should be noted you have expressed in the past an abject fear of 20 grade oils for any sort of perceived demanding use. When I informed you a while back that Porsche ran the Fuchs 0W-20 in the GT3 Porsche Cup series successfully a few years ago you refused to believe me.

Yes I can see a use for a heavier than necessary oil under certain conditions such high oil consumption which constant cruising at high rpms could contribute to. Or if availability of the recommended grade is a problem.
But make no mistake the lightest oil recommended is all that's required to satisfy the lubrication demands of the engine under all conditions.

I am not recommending the 0W-20 grade, Toyota/Subaru are and there is absolutely no requirement to run anything heavier. This
is a sporty little car and it's totally naive to believe that the manufacturer hasn't accounted for extreme use in their oil grade recommendation and track results have proven this to be case. I haven't heard of a single case of the spec' oil grade failing to do it's job.

To give another example of where the 20 grade is recommended for track use is the Ford Mustang GT with 430hp. A 5W-20 semi-synthetic is the spec' oil and Ford specifically is on record stating that nothing heavier is required even for track day use. Like the Toyota 86 and it's clones, the Mustang GT does
not come with an oil cooler and if oil temp's get too high the electronic management safeties will kick-in. If this happens too often Ford recommends installing the optional oil cooler, not a
heavier oil grade which if anything is counter-productive.

 

[Trav]

He its nothing personal caterham. Listen the PDF i linked to is Toyota racing they made the spec man not me.
I don't get it, i really don't. One one side you are saying..
Quote:
it's totally naive to believe that the manufacturer hasn't accounted for extreme use in their oil grade recommendation


But when Toyota themselves recommends 10w60 they are full of it, because you say it only needs 0w20 and i am being difficult for passing that along.
The car in the PDF is a stock FA 200HP or thereabouts engine with no internal mods, its not like the added forced induction or special injection to it.

All the other bits can be purchased for that car direct from them.
Why doesn't Toyota recommend 0w20 for it? Simple question. Are their engineers clueless?

This a Subaru based engine design, they have never been a 20w anything engine or even a 30w engine although they get away with running it.
The addition of cam chains and DI could possibly make it even harder on oil when run hard. We wont know that till most of them are well out of warranty in a few years.

I believe both Subaru and Toyota know this and specs heavier oils where the possibility of sustained high RPM is likely. The fact they spec engine for heavier oil in other places (even it it were as an option, its irrelevant) and track use lends more than a little credibility to this.

The PDF is more than enough food for thought for anyone looking for the right answer and not just dancing in the dark on blind faith that 0w20 will do the job under all conditions.
You have information from a valid source and determine if its relevant to your situation. The OP said hard track use in Australia not east Bouctouche in april.

If i were the OP i would certainly try the Elf 10w60 when tracked as a starting point and check the engine for wear after some time. Its like selling a used car you can always go down but you cant go up. Once the damage is done its done.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
This is a sporty little car and it's totally naive to believe that the manufacturer hasn't accounted for extreme use in their oil grade recommendation and track results have proven this to be case. I haven't heard of a single case of the spec' oil grade failing to do it's job.


Subaru have said that the oil can't do the job, and that the engine can outdrive their lubricant in bog stock form...thus the "safeties".

Safeties that have had Australian Tuners not get repeatable dyno baselines before tuning because the ECM cuts 6 or so KW on a dyno run of a few seconds.

Makes one wonder how they can have a claimed power output when it's capped because of the lubricant that they chose (for whatever their reasons, ultimate protection not being one of them clearly).

You are a bloke who sees a world in which MMO could be used to thin a 20...who claimed that the used oil taxi valvetrain wear testing improvement (without even reading the document) was due to the oil thinning in service...nothing thin is too thin for you, and physics hold no sway...that's bias.

 

[Nate1979]

If a manufacturer says to run a heavier oil when at high loads I just don't get where the fools on this site make recommendations that could result in thousands of $$ of damages. Instead a couple of nonrelated examples are given that have nothing to do with the engine in question. There are some data and posts on other forums that this specific engine can hit 266F without safeties kicking in and example where safeties kick in at sustained high load conditions where oil temp didn't go high. Whether timing is pulled under high oil temp wasn't sure.

You are a fool to trust the ECU to save your engine just to be able to run a thin oil against the manufacturers recommendation.

 

[Gokhan]

Well, I run 0W-20 in my 4A-LC engine with decent UOA results, but running it in track conditions in your 4A-C (or perhaps 4A-GEC?) with 100+% load (oil squeezed a lot) and very high engine temperatures (very thin oil to begin with) may result in inadequate protection against metal-to-metal contact, unless you have some special cooling system.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
You are a fool to trust the ECU to save your engine just to be able to run a thin oil against the manufacturers recommendation.


As a poster mentioned in another thread, the inertial loads of a fluffed gearchange can't be programmed out

 

[Trav]

Thats the whole point. Toyota themselves spec a heavier oil specifically for this car when it is tracked.
Its in black and white from Toyota themselves. I don't understand why one person in particular is having trouble with it.

Admittedly its for track use, they don't say run 10w60 for daily use but in Germany they do spec 0w40 for every day use because of the high RPM use it could see on a regular basis.
I based my 0w40 recommendation on these two facts. It will work every day and hold up under high loads and RPM unless he wants to change the oil every time he tracks it.
If given a really good walloping for a long period even the 0w40 might be to thin, i don't know.

Like anyone else its just my opinion but its not one out of thin air. More on the documentation available and a little common sense.
I can find no document from either Toyota or Subaru which states 0w20 can be used for the track, just the opposite.
Guessing what the manufacturer meant and interpreting/recommending use based on that is IMHO a little fast and loose with someone else's car.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Well, I run 0W-20 in my 4A-LC engine with decent UOA results, but running it in track conditions in your 4A-C (or perhaps 4A-GEC?) with 100+% load (oil squeezed a lot) and very high engine temperatures (very thin oil to begin with) may result in inadequate protection against metal-to-metal contact, unless you have some special cooling system.

Lol I thought OP had bought the legendary AE86 when he said Toyota 86. I had no idea he was talking about the new, remake 86, which I had forgot about.

 

[wemay]

Hey guys,

Could the fuel makeup/quality also have something to do with differing oil recommendations for different countries? Not siting track use specifically but including it along with daily drivers.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

To give another example of where the 20 grade is recommended for track use is the Ford Mustang GT with 430hp. A 5W-20 semi-synthetic is the spec' oil and Ford specifically is on record stating that nothing heavier is required even for track day use.


Unless you buy the Track Pack version of the exact same car. And then it sports an oil cooler and calls for 5w-50. You seem to have forgotten to mention that part.....

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Like the Toyota 86 and it's clones, the Mustang GT does not come with an oil cooler


Unless you order the Track Pack

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
and if oil temp's get too high the electronic management safeties will kick-in. If this happens too often Ford recommends installing the optional oil cooler, not a heavier oil grade which if anything is counter-productive.


Or recommends if you are planning on tracking the car.... to buy the Track Pack. Which DOES call for heavier oil AND comes with the oil cooler stock

The CAFE version of the car comes with the ultra cool crippling mechanism which doesn't get modified when you install the oil cooler (which is why they don't recommend you go to a heavier oil.... It isn't going to change the temp the safety kicks in at). The version actually designed for track use has this system modified or removed because it calls for a more appropriate viscosity that is suitable for the elevated oil temperatures that may be encountered during real track use. Guess that's why they call it the "Track Pack" eh?

LOL!

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: wemay
Hey guys,

Could the fuel makeup/quality also have something to do with differing oil recommendations for different countries? Not siting track use specifically but including it along with daily drivers.

Higher sulfur in fuel increases the TBN depletion and TAN rise through sulphation, one of the three causes of TBN/TAN-caused oil deterioration (not particulate-caused), other two being oxidation of base oil and nitration arising from combustion. So, countries with lower-sulfur fuel such as Europe or states like California can enjoy longer OCIs or tolerate smaller initial TBN (lower-SAPS oil).

Other than that, driving conditions and ambient temperatures are important in viscosity recommendation -- higher speeds/loads and/or higher ambient temperatures require thicker oil.

 

[wemay]

Thank you Gokhan.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
You are a fool to trust the ECU to save your engine just to be able to run a thin oil against the manufacturers recommendation.


As a poster mentioned in another thread, the inertial loads of a fluffed gearchange can't be programmed out

It's always fun to listen to the pontifications
of fellows that have zero track experience and go off half-cocked with knee-jerk recommendations.

The solution, as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, if high oil temp's are routinely visited, is the installation of the oil cooler.
It's a win-win-win. You don't want excessively high oil temp's if they can be prevented for a myriad of reasons. It prevents the ECU safeties from being activated which no one wants and ends the counter-productive discussion of the use of heavier oil grades.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Unless you buy the Track Pack version of the exact same car. And then it sports an oil cooler and calls for 5w-50. You seem to have forgotten to mention that part.....


Its amazing that fact get fluffed off just as easy as Toyota's own document specifying thicker oil with an oil cooler.
The facts are there in black and white from both companies yet they just get ignored, How about someone showing something from either company that says sure run 0w20 on the track.
Good luck with that, it doesn't exist.

I am noticing a pattern here. Just ignore any facts that are presented and keep repeating the same old stuff like a broken record and the OP will get PO'd and be sorry they ever asked the question.

With many people asking which oil to use in these cars for track use, i will see if i can get a English translation document and see if they will make it sticky.
It is after all Toyota OE documentation with lots of very useful information on fluids, coolers, and other parts for these cars.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
As a poster mentioned in another thread, the inertial loads of a fluffed gearchange can't be programmed out

It's always fun to listen to the pontifications
of fellows that have zero track experience and go off half-cocked with knee-jerk recommendations.


It's a good feeling, isn't it.

Unfortunately, your jocularity is a mere shadow of what I get from the board when posters with no technical qualifications or experience whatsoever, who have never designed so much as a towel rail, spout of half baked theories and half truths as irrefutible scientific fact while displaying profound difficulties in reading and comprehension of even rudimentary technical papers.

When they refuse to back any of their pseudo science posits with facts, science, or anything other than feelings of understanding, or statements of "facts", "self evident" from some made up twilight zone, I must admit to mirth.

BTW, don't you still owe me $100 site supporter status from your lessons on measurement accuracy and the calculation of VI, (ironically in a thread on TGMO )???

 

[chrisri]

I have to say that I disagree.
Temperature of oil in oil pan are reduced with installation of oil cooler, but hot spots around engine are still an issue with low viscosity oils. You cannot address increased bearing temperatures and loads with oil cooler. You will notice that sports cars or sporty versions of normal cars do implement oil cooler combined with thicker oils to prevent engine damage when car is tracked or raced. This are not normal road use conditions.
You keep saying how beneficial is use of this 0w20 oils but I can't see those benefits especially on a track.

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
If a manufacturer says to run a heavier oil when at high loads I just don't get where the fools on this site make recommendations that could result in thousands of $$ of damages. Instead a couple of nonrelated examples are given that have nothing to do with the engine in question. There are some data and posts on other forums that this specific engine can hit 266F without safeties kicking in and example where safeties kick in at sustained high load conditions where oil temp didn't go high. Whether timing is pulled under high oil temp wasn't sure.

You are a fool to trust the ECU to save your engine just to be able to run a thin oil against the manufacturers recommendation.

From the N. American owner's manual:

Code:
The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when

the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a

higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high

speeds, or under extreme load conditions.


And all you have to do is a simple google search on FT86club to read about bearing failures:
Quote:
...I was only a mile away from home, so I decided to baby it home and I made it. It is important to note, at no point did any warning lights or CELs come on. I checked my ScanGauge and no codes were stored, the system reported as ready.

The next morning I had it towed into the dealership and they took a look at it. The official verdict was #4 rod bearing had spun, disintegrated, and the short block was ruined. The technician was rather surprised himself...


And there are plenty more where that came from.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1580603#post1580603

I really don't understand why some people would look at a manufacturers "general" oil viscosity recommendation and think those recommendations are absolutely ideal in 100% of conditions. And in this case we do have thicker viscosity recommendations in the owners manual during high load conditions

Those are the same people that recommend Resource Conserving GF5 5W-30 in a WRX in every condition when there have been lubrication related bearing failures on stock, dealer serviced cars.

-Dennis

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
If a manufacturer says to run a heavier oil when at high loads I just don't get where the fools on this site make recommendations that could result in thousands of $$ of damages. Instead a couple of nonrelated examples are given that have nothing to do with the engine in question. There are some data and posts on other forums that this specific engine can hit 266F without safeties kicking in and example where safeties kick in at sustained high load conditions where oil temp didn't go high. Whether timing is pulled under high oil temp wasn't sure.

You are a fool to trust the ECU to save your engine just to be able to run a thin oil against the manufacturers recommendation.

From the N. American owner's manual:

Code:
The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when

the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a

higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high

speeds, or under extreme load conditions.



I agree. Sometimes admitting you're wrong is a bitter pill to swallow, and people will go to great lengths to defend their positions not to swallow that pill. Everyone has been wrong one time or another, its not such a big deal.

If I owned one of these vehicles and I was tracking it I would not have a 20 grade oil in the sump. A little common sense goes a long way sometimes, and admitting you're wrong can be a good thing, it shows character. Opinions vary. Carry on!

 

[Trav]

Quote:
The 20 in 0W-20 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when
the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a
higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high
speeds, or under extreme load conditions.


That seems pretty reasonable doesn't it.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
You are a fool to trust the ECU to save your engine just to be able to run a thin oil against the manufacturers recommendation.


As a poster mentioned in another thread, the inertial loads of a fluffed gearchange can't be programmed out

It's always fun to listen to the pontifications
of fellows that have zero track experience and go off half-cocked with knee-jerk recommendations.

The solution, as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, if high oil temp's are routinely visited, is the installation of the oil cooler.
It's a win-win-win. You don't want excessively high oil temp's if they can be prevented for a myriad of reasons. It prevents the ECU safeties from being activated which no one wants and ends the counter-productive discussion of the use of heavier oil grades.


Oh, well my post was based on the assumption that you had not tracked the car in the OP's question. My mistake. Can you please post your logged data for a Toyota 86 in track conditions with a 0w-20 so we can look at the data and make some conclusions?