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#3391973 - 06/08/14 07:40 AM In tank additives for DI
nicholas Offline


Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 707
Loc: ottawa
Hi gang,

Well this is the first Directed Injected car I have owned - 09 Audi A4, 2.0T.

I see a lot of products popping up lately claiming to reduce or eliminate Direct Injection valve deposits, do any of them actually work, from your own personal experience?

My understanding was that you needed to run something through the intake, throttle body, brake booster - to actually wash over the valves. As they are closed during the combustion cycle.

Any advice to keep my filthy valves clean?
Thanks

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#3391996 - 06/08/14 08:23 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
spasm3 Online   content


Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 7327
Loc: North Carolina
I don't think there is anything in tank that will help. My thoughts would be to spray something like b-12 throught the intake while it was cold and being cranked, and let it sit a bit. Then crank it up after say 5-10 minutes and spray more through the intake. The problem is, you would have to do this on a regular basis to really have any effect.
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#3392015 - 06/08/14 08:51 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
sciphi Offline


Registered: 03/24/07
Posts: 10008
Loc: Upstate NY
Supposedly a PEA-based cleaner will linger around a little while after combustion and dissolve some of the carbon. If a strong enough dose is used, and if the engine programming allows for enough overlap where the intake valves are open while the exhaust valves are open. Supposedly...

The best way is using a low NOACK oil and a good old-fashioned Italian tuneup once a week or so. Get that engine and those valves hot.
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#3392074 - 06/08/14 10:18 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 27354
Loc: NY
I don't think in tank additives will help either. Now something like an Inverse Oiler might help, or feeding a cleaner via a vacuum line.
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#3392106 - 06/08/14 10:56 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
dparm Offline


Registered: 04/19/10
Posts: 13080
Loc: Chicago, IL
Are you having problems with carbon build-up?

If so, in-tank products won't do much.
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#3392119 - 06/08/14 11:15 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
DBMaster Offline


Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 4684
Loc: Greg Abbott Land
If the OEM's are producing cars that are going to have issues due to valve deposits there are going to be class action suits out the wazoo (What is a wazoo?).

I have a 2012 Mazda with DI. I am simply not worrying about it.

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#3392201 - 06/08/14 01:46 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
OneEyeJack Offline


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 6230
Loc: S California
DI is probably not a good idea for the person that keeps a car beyond the factory warranty. In fact owning any Audi beyond the warranty might get expensive, very expensive. One neighbor just spent $2,800 on an Audi timing belt, water pump and seals. A few years ago another neighbor bought a used car for $2,500 and drove it for 25K miles commuting to work with nothing more than oil changes and gasoline. He hit the roof when he had to spend $400 on the same kind of timing belt/water pump service. Much of this new technology and gadgets are for the first owner that ditches the car just before the expiration of the warranty. These fancy cars will not survive long after the first major glitch. A local shop here has half a dozen of these fancy cars in the back lot waiting for the customer to pay or for the recycle tow truck to show up because they are not worth the cost of repairs.

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#3392797 - 06/09/14 08:09 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 5067
Loc: KC
These additives will help prevent/reduce but they will not help clean. The engine is a system and the additives mainly help with the injectors and combustion chambers parts of this system. This in turn will help prevent/reduce DI deposits.

If injectors foul (and DI injectors do foul), you don't get as good of combustion. This leads to more gas making it into the oil. Gas in the oil increases volatility which increases PCV vapors that condense and deposit on the intake valves.

Regular fuel system cleaners is the first line of defense against intake valve deposits.


Edited by badtlc (06/09/14 08:09 AM)
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#3394000 - 06/10/14 01:19 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
OneEyeJack Offline


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 6230
Loc: S California

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#3394017 - 06/10/14 01:44 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 3268
Loc: SF Bay Area
Afton Chemical claims to have a detergent additive designed to clean DI engines. However, they're one of the major additive makers and it's specifically designed for treating bulk fuel. I suppose some treatment in a bottle marketer could buy it and bottle it for the aftermarket.

http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Fuel/HiTEC-6470_PDS.pdf

Quote:
http://www.aftonchemical.com/News/Pages/DIGInjectorCleanupTechnology.aspx

Afton Chemical announced a new gasoline additive developed to clean and prevent deposits in Direct Injection Gasoline (DIG) engines. With car and truck manufacturers rapidly embracing DIG technology, the additive will be a robust remedy for an imminent problem. Our new technology keeps DIG injectors clean and it also offers our customers industry leading LAC and TOP TIER™ treat rates.

According to Dave DiBerto, Global Fuels Business Manager for Afton, “DIG engines can be prone to performance-robbing deposits that form in fuel injectors.” DiBerto said, “In a DIG engine, the fuel injector is located directly in the combustion chamber. This is intended to improve fuel economy and power, but the thermally-harsh environment can cause deposits that clog fuel injection ports and actually reduce performance.”

I believe the issue would be that it's not sprayed directly onto the intake valves. The mist is a great way to get the valve soaked in the fuel/detergent mix. So whatever cleaning action would have to come from whatever tiny amount of mist gets onto the valve before the whole mixture explodes. I've heard that some DI engines come with small port fuel injectors to make up for the lack of cleaning. It still gets the major benefits of spraying directly into the cylinder, but takes care of one of the issues.

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#3394109 - 06/10/14 03:51 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: y_p_w]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 5067
Loc: KC
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Afton Chemical claims to have a detergent additive designed to clean DI engines. However, they're one of the major additive makers and it's specifically designed for treating bulk fuel. I suppose some treatment in a bottle marketer could buy it and bottle it for the aftermarket.

http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Fuel/HiTEC-6470_PDS.pdf

Quote:
http://www.aftonchemical.com/News/Pages/DIGInjectorCleanupTechnology.aspx

Afton Chemical announced a new gasoline additive developed to clean and prevent deposits in Direct Injection Gasoline (DIG) engines. With car and truck manufacturers rapidly embracing DIG technology, the additive will be a robust remedy for an imminent problem. Our new technology keeps DIG injectors clean and it also offers our customers industry leading LAC and TOP TIER™ treat rates.

According to Dave DiBerto, Global Fuels Business Manager for Afton, “DIG engines can be prone to performance-robbing deposits that form in fuel injectors.” DiBerto said, “In a DIG engine, the fuel injector is located directly in the combustion chamber. This is intended to improve fuel economy and power, but the thermally-harsh environment can cause deposits that clog fuel injection ports and actually reduce performance.”

I believe the issue would be that it's not sprayed directly onto the intake valves. The mist is a great way to get the valve soaked in the fuel/detergent mix. So whatever cleaning action would have to come from whatever tiny amount of mist gets onto the valve before the whole mixture explodes. I've heard that some DI engines come with small port fuel injectors to make up for the lack of cleaning. It still gets the major benefits of spraying directly into the cylinder, but takes care of one of the issues.


Afton was specifically talking about DI injectors.
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#3394118 - 06/10/14 04:13 PM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: badtlc]
y_p_w Offline


Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 3268
Loc: SF Bay Area
Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Afton Chemical claims to have a detergent additive designed to clean DI engines. However, they're one of the major additive makers and it's specifically designed for treating bulk fuel. I suppose some treatment in a bottle marketer could buy it and bottle it for the aftermarket.

http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Fuel/HiTEC-6470_PDS.pdf

Quote:
http://www.aftonchemical.com/News/Pages/DIGInjectorCleanupTechnology.aspx

Afton Chemical announced a new gasoline additive developed to clean and prevent deposits in Direct Injection Gasoline (DIG) engines. With car and truck manufacturers rapidly embracing DIG technology, the additive will be a robust remedy for an imminent problem. Our new technology keeps DIG injectors clean and it also offers our customers industry leading LAC and TOP TIER™ treat rates.

According to Dave DiBerto, Global Fuels Business Manager for Afton, “DIG engines can be prone to performance-robbing deposits that form in fuel injectors.” DiBerto said, “In a DIG engine, the fuel injector is located directly in the combustion chamber. This is intended to improve fuel economy and power, but the thermally-harsh environment can cause deposits that clog fuel injection ports and actually reduce performance.”

I believe the issue would be that it's not sprayed directly onto the intake valves. The mist is a great way to get the valve soaked in the fuel/detergent mix. So whatever cleaning action would have to come from whatever tiny amount of mist gets onto the valve before the whole mixture explodes. I've heard that some DI engines come with small port fuel injectors to make up for the lack of cleaning. It still gets the major benefits of spraying directly into the cylinder, but takes care of one of the issues.


Afton was specifically talking about DI injectors.

The quote might have been the wrong one to use. I was thinking more of the HiTEC-6470.

Quote:
HiTEC® 6470 is a gasoline performance additive based on Afton’s latest
generation, patented, Mannich detergent technology. HiTEC® 6470 is
formulated to meet the challenges of modern Direct Injection Gasoline
(DIG) technology, whilst continuing to deliver excellent performance in
the traditional Port Fuel Injection (PFI) engine platform.
The inlet valves and injectors are kept clean and free from deposits
resulting in:
- Enhanced fuel economy
- Improved power and acceleration
- Reduced emissions
- Enhanced engine life


They show a photo of a valve (ostensibly from a DI engine) using a base fuel with gunky valves, and one using the additive where it's clean.

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#3394621 - 06/11/14 08:17 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: OneEyeJack]
Trav Offline


Registered: 11/20/06
Posts: 15903
Loc: MA, Mittelfranken.de
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack

Toyota uses a similar system. Its probably the only real solution, within a few years i can see it becoming the industry norm.
Until then i wouldn't touch a DI engine without it with a 10 foot pole.
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#3394624 - 06/11/14 08:22 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: Trav]
demarpaint Offline


Registered: 07/03/05
Posts: 27354
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Trav

Until then i wouldn't touch a DI engine without it with a 10 foot pole.


Same here.
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#3394634 - 06/11/14 08:39 AM Re: In tank additives for DI [Re: nicholas]
badtlc Offline


Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 5067
Loc: KC
You guys are missing out. I'm loving my DI and it still looks good on the valves according to my mechanic and his boroscope.

Great MPGs, good power. Just all around fun to drive.
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