Very Good PR from Hastings Re: LF613

[CapitalTruck]

My question:
I was looking at your LF613 filter as a replacement for my PF48 filter on my 4.8 Silverado. I had a couple of questions:

I just want to confirm that the location of the bypass valve on the LF613 is at the filter inlet, not at the top of the element as on the ACDelco PF48. The Delco's arrangement seems inferior to me.

Secondly, and more importantly, the bypass valve on the Delco operates at approximately 9-12 psi, or something in that neighborhood (from what I understand). The specs for the LF613 indicate that the bypass becomes operational at 20psi. Is this large desparity a problem? Will my engine be starved of oil at high rpms because the bypass on the LF613 requires a higher pressure to operate?

Thanks for your time.

Answer Given:
Thank you for using Hastings filters. The by-pass valve in the LF613 is at the top of the element. This valve is set to open when the differential pressure across the element reaches 20 psid. Engineering evaluated the AC Delco filter in 2006 and determined that the by-pass valve in that filter opened at 18.84 psid. Therefore, the by-pass valve in the LF613 opens at nearly the same level of restriction as the AC Delco filter.

 

[CapitalTruck]

Now having said all of this, I guess I'm down to only using Wix filters if I want a filter with a base mounted bypass valve. My issue with the bypasses on the top of the element is that when the filter goes into bypass mode all of the oil rushes over the business portion of the filter and then proceeds, unfiltered, into the engine. It seems inevitable that it would pick up contaminants in this process (as it rushes over the filter). With the base mounted bypass arrangement it would seem that the oil would be bypassed prior to reaching the filtration element.

 

[jhellwig]

If gm didn't spec their filter to have the bypass at the base then it doesn't need it there.

If there are chunks on your filter big enough to get washed off when the filter goes into bypass then there are problems with the motor that no filter is going to fix.

 

[yvon_la]

I like pro tec filter (from wix)the silicon does the anti return and also the bypass so no steel problem!

 

[RF Overlord]

Excellent that they sent you the engineering drawing...

Ford specifies a base-end bypass for many of the Motorcraft filters, so I'm glad they're available easily and at low cost, but Jim Allen has spoke with a number of filter engineers who claim the bypass valve location is not as important as we believe. Hopefully he'll chime in here...

 

[CapitalTruck]

Originally Posted By: jhellwig
If gm didn't spec their filter to have the bypass at the base then it doesn't need it there.

If there are chunks on your filter big enough to get washed off when the filter goes into bypass then there are problems with the motor that no filter is going to fix.


I don't necessarily buy that. I would believe that GM found it to be more cost effective to have the bypass valve on the top of the filter element. AND I would think that it works fine for those that want to keep their whip going for 150,000-200,000 miles. However, those of us who want more might need to look for it in another filter.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
Now having said all of this, I guess I'm down to only using Wix filters if I want a filter with a base mounted bypass valve. My issue with the bypasses on the top of the element is that when the filter goes into bypass mode all of the oil rushes over the business portion of the filter and then proceeds, unfiltered, into the engine. It seems inevitable that it would pick up contaminants in this process (as it rushes over the filter).


It just doesn't work that way. When the bypass valve *first* opens, oil is *already* flowing through the medium at its maximum rate (if it weren't there wouldn't/couldn't be enough pressure differential to open the bypass valve). That means that any contaminants are being actively pinned against the filter medium by flow- so they can't just break loose and join the bypass flow stream, which is away from the nearby localized flow through the media.

The one and only possible time that a dome-end bypass valve might pick up a contaminant that a base-end valve wouldn't is right after a startup when (maybe...) some debris has settled off the medium and into the dome. But that would require the filter jumping straight from no flow and into bypass within less than a second of startup. I just don't see that happening, either.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
I don't necessarily buy that. I would believe that GM found it to be more cost effective to have the bypass valve on the top of the filter element.

If GM were really that worried about it, they would have put the bypass in the engine, like the 4.3.

In any event, not every Wix filter out there does have thread end bypass. The vast majority do, but not all.

In any event, I wouldn't worry about it. Between Wix and Hastings, buy by price or availability. I doubt that a dome end bypass is going to mean the difference between only getting 200,000 miles versus getting much more.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Garak
If GM were really that worried about it, they would have put the bypass in the engine, like the 4.3.

So GM 4.8L doesn't have the filter bypass built into the engine like GM traditionally does?

Anyway, I rarely think the location of the bypass valve makes any real difference, mostly in a clean engine. If an engine was a super sludger, and debris was constantly sloughing off the media after shutdown, then the location of the bypass valve might make a difference on initial start-ups if the bypass was to open.

Also, the delta-p that the bypass valve opens up at is also dependent on the design of the filter, along with the engine application. IMO, more so on the filter's design. That's why you will see filters of different brands all specified for the same engine have slightly different bypass valve opening specs.

 

[CapitalTruck]

Yeah, recent GM LS engines, as well as the 3.6 V6 (at a minimum) do not have the bypass in the engine, it's in the filter. I cut open the Wix 57060 this evening and realized it also has the bypass in the top of the filter element. Thus, it appears that the location of the bypass valve at the top of the filter is a feature inherent in the design of filters for these GM engines. So, it appears my quest was all for nothing. Oh well. Here's the top of the Wix filter element.

 

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
Originally Posted By: jhellwig
If gm didn't spec their filter to have the bypass at the base then it doesn't need it there.

If there are chunks on your filter big enough to get washed off when the filter goes into bypass then there are problems with the motor that no filter is going to fix.


I don't necessarily buy that. I would believe that GM found it to be more cost effective to have the bypass valve on the top of the filter element. AND I would think that it works fine for those that want to keep their whip going for 150,000-200,000 miles. However, those of us who want more might need to look for it in another filter.


A bypass in the dome isn't going to make you engine clunk out at 150000. There are plenty of examples on here of people going well over that with conventional oil and cheap filters.

 

[CapitalTruck]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
Now having said all of this, I guess I'm down to only using Wix filters if I want a filter with a base mounted bypass valve. My issue with the bypasses on the top of the element is that when the filter goes into bypass mode all of the oil rushes over the business portion of the filter and then proceeds, unfiltered, into the engine. It seems inevitable that it would pick up contaminants in this process (as it rushes over the filter).


It just doesn't work that way. When the bypass valve *first* opens, oil is *already* flowing through the medium at its maximum rate (if it weren't there wouldn't/couldn't be enough pressure differential to open the bypass valve). That means that any contaminants are being actively pinned against the filter medium by flow- so they can't just break loose and join the bypass flow stream, which is away from the nearby localized flow through the media.

The one and only possible time that a dome-end bypass valve might pick up a contaminant that a base-end valve wouldn't is right after a startup when (maybe...) some debris has settled off the medium and into the dome. But that would require the filter jumping straight from no flow and into bypass within less than a second of startup. I just don't see that happening, either.



What an excellent point. Simple logic would dictate that you are indeed correct. Just because the bypass is open doesn't mean that there isn't still pressure against (and oil moving through) the media. Point well taken.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
Just because the bypass is open doesn't mean that there isn't still pressure against (and oil moving through) the media. Point well taken.


Exactly ... example, if there is 14 PSI to make the bypass valve open, then there is 14 PSI across the whole media area, and unless there media is totally clogged up there will also be flow through the media at the same time there is flow through the bypass valve.

The only time a bypass valve location could make a difference is if debris sloughs off the media after shutdown, and that debris lays near the bypass valve. Then on the next start-up the bypass valve opens up and that debris then gets swept though the bypass valve. In order for debris to slough off the media, the filter would have to have a lot of debris collected. Debris usually finds it's way deep down into the pleats and stays there even when the engine is shut off. In a pretty clean engine, none of that should happen and any debris should be caught deep down in the pleats and stay there.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
So GM 4.8L doesn't have the filter bypass built into the engine like GM traditionally does?

I'm guessing it doesn't, since the specified filter lists a bypass pressure, while filters for other engines of the same model year have no bypass valve.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
My question:
I was looking at your LF613 filter as a replacement for my PF48 filter on my 4.8 Silverado. I had a couple of questions:

I just want to confirm that the location of the bypass valve on the LF613 is at the filter inlet, not at the top of the element as on the ACDelco PF48. The Delco's arrangement seems inferior to me.

Secondly, and more importantly, the bypass valve on the Delco operates at approximately 9-12 psi, or something in that neighborhood (from what I understand). The specs for the LF613 indicate that the bypass becomes operational at 20psi. Is this large desparity a problem? Will my engine be starved of oil at high rpms because the bypass on the LF613 requires a higher pressure to operate?

Thanks for your time.

Answer Given:
Thank you for using Hastings filters. The by-pass valve in the LF613 is at the top of the element. This valve is set to open when the differential pressure across the element reaches 20 psid. Engineering evaluated the AC Delco filter in 2006 and determined that the by-pass valve in that filter opened at 18.84 psid. Therefore, the by-pass valve in the LF613 opens at nearly the same level of restriction as the AC Delco filter.


The PF48 I installed today had the By-Pass valve in the same location as the Balwin/Hastings drawing you posted??

 

[CapitalTruck]

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Originally Posted By: CapitalTruck
My question:
I was looking at your LF613 filter as a replacement for my PF48 filter on my 4.8 Silverado. I had a couple of questions:

I just want to confirm that the location of the bypass valve on the LF613 is at the filter inlet, not at the top of the element as on the ACDelco PF48. The Delco's arrangement seems inferior to me.

Secondly, and more importantly, the bypass valve on the Delco operates at approximately 9-12 psi, or something in that neighborhood (from what I understand). The specs for the LF613 indicate that the bypass becomes operational at 20psi. Is this large desparity a problem? Will my engine be starved of oil at high rpms because the bypass on the LF613 requires a higher pressure to operate?

Thanks for your time.

Answer Given:
Thank you for using Hastings filters. The by-pass valve in the LF613 is at the top of the element. This valve is set to open when the differential pressure across the element reaches 20 psid. Engineering evaluated the AC Delco filter in 2006 and determined that the by-pass valve in that filter opened at 18.84 psid. Therefore, the by-pass valve in the LF613 opens at nearly the same level of restriction as the AC Delco filter.


The PF48 I installed today had the By-Pass valve in the same location as the Balwin/Hastings drawing you posted??


That's right

 

[CapitalTruck]

Here is the ACDelco and the Wix side by side. I'm confident fully in the integrity of the ACDelco. It actually seemed to be the better filter. More filter area seemingly. Also, the bypass valve seemed stiffer on the ACDelco (ie oil will flow through the filter in the ACDelco with a higher pressure threshold than in the Wix).

Wix is on left, ACDelco on right

ACDelco on left, Wix on right