Toyota TGMO 0W-20 SN VOA with VI, TBN, and TAN

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Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
About 99% of the API 0W/5W-20 oils on the market have a 2.6cP HTHSV according to company PDS.

Come on, CATERHAM, this is not true at all. 2.6 cP is nothing but the minimum HTHSV spec by SAE, not the actual HTHSV spec of the oil.

Here are some examples:

M1 AFE 0W-20 SN: 2.7 cP
M1 EP 0W-20 SN: 2.7 cP
Amsoil OEZ 0W-20 SN: 2.7 cP
Amsoil ASM 0W-20 SN: 2.8 cP
Redline 0W-20 SN: 2.9 cP

I gave 5 common counterexamples to the 2.6 cP, and they average to about 2.8 cP. If it's 99% 2.6 cP as you say, you need to find 495 different examples of PDSs that have HTHSV 2.6 cP.

Well first of all you can eliminate the non API RL and Asmoil and one of the M1 0W-20s (they're the same oil).
Compare OTC 0W/5W-20s and virtually all PDS HTHS spec's are 2.6cP.
 
OFF TOPIC KINDA

the 20w oils are supposed to be for fuel economy right? For the most part, that is why Honda and Toyota are fighting for the 16W to get the best MPG's.

Thing is, my friends Honda Civic SI, he runs 20w, same rated HP (plus or minus) vs my VW GTI that runs a 40w and I get better MPG's then he does on our Commute. We drive each other one week off and on, he cant believe it. haha.

Just a thought. Sorry to Thread Jack.
27.gif


Jeff
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
By chasing VI above all else, they have increased the KV100 for a given HTHS...that's the basis of your assertion.

Considering that VI is a dimensionless number based upon KV40 and KV100, one of the easiest ways to raise the VI is to raise the KV100, right? It's as mathematically sound as lowering the KV40.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I got the TGMO 0W-20 SN for $5.65 a quart at a local Toyota dealer. They have a parts Web site I can order from that gives 22% off MSRP and then I go there and pick it up will-call.

If local Toyota dealers in Orange county has similar price I would buy some, but down here they demand $7-8/qt.

I hate paying $2-3/qt more than M1 AFE and EP.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
About 99% of the API 0W/5W-20 oils on the market have a 2.6cP HTHSV according to company PDS.

Come on, CATERHAM, this is not true at all. 2.6 cP is nothing but the minimum HTHSV spec by SAE, not the actual HTHSV spec of the oil.

Here are some examples:

M1 AFE 0W-20 SN: 2.7 cP
M1 EP 0W-20 SN: 2.7 cP
Amsoil OEZ 0W-20 SN: 2.7 cP
Amsoil ASM 0W-20 SN: 2.8 cP
Redline 0W-20 SN: 2.9 cP

I gave 5 common counterexamples to the 2.6 cP, and they average to about 2.8 cP. If it's 99% 2.6 cP as you say, you need to find 495 different examples of PDSs that have HTHSV 2.6 cP.

Well first of all you can eliminate the non API RL and Asmoil and one of the M1 0W-20s (they're the same oil).
Compare OTC 0W/5W-20s and virtually all PDS HTHS spec's are 2.6cP.

Amsoil has the API starburst symbol. M1 AFE and M1 EP have different base oils -- quite different oils. Still waiting for your many examples.

In any case, your assertion is mere speculation.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I got the TGMO 0W-20 SN for $5.65 a quart at a local Toyota dealer. They have a parts Web site I can order from that gives 22% off MSRP and then I go there and pick it up will-call.

If local Toyota dealers in Orange county has similar price I would buy some, but down here they demand $7-8/qt.

I hate paying $2-3/qt more than M1 AFE and EP.

Carson is almost Orange County. Just order it online for that price and pick up a whole case.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can call WearCheck USA and set up a personal account. Their "MOB II with TBN/TAN" UOA/VOA is very affordable, comprehensive, and accurate.


Do you have full faith in the VI reading they claim for this seemingly unbelievable oil??

It is VERY rare that an oil tests BETTER than the specs claimed by the actual manufacturer.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Low TAN and low Mg contrasts with many of the newer oils like Mobil 1 SN, which have high Mg and high TAN that are potentially harmful to the engine.

How so? Is there some empirical evidence this is true or is this an opinion?
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can call WearCheck USA and set up a personal account. Their "MOB II with TBN/TAN" UOA/VOA is very affordable, comprehensive, and accurate.

Do you have full faith in the VI reading they claim for this seemingly unbelievable oil??

It is VERY rare that an oil tests BETTER than the specs claimed by the actual manufacturer.

Neither ExxonMobil nor Toyota publishes any TGMO specs. Therefore, the only TGMO info/specs comes from the VOAs.

WearCheck is No. 1 in the world for oil analysis and their VOA numbers are in line with my Blackstone UOA and WearCheck UOA.
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can call WearCheck USA and set up a personal account. Their "MOB II with TBN/TAN" UOA/VOA is very affordable, comprehensive, and accurate.


Do you have full faith in the VI reading they claim for this seemingly unbelievable oil??

It is VERY rare that an oil tests BETTER than the specs claimed by the actual manufacturer.


AFAIK, there are no manufacturer specs to go from, no PDS.
 
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Low TAN and low Mg contrasts with many of the newer oils like Mobil 1 SN, which have high Mg and high TAN that are potentially harmful to the engine.

How so? Is there some empirical evidence this is true or is this an opinion?

Yes, it's based on extensive empirical evidence. I just explained it briefly earlier in this thread:

"Mg is not harmful directly. However, it's not effective at neutralizing certain types of acids; therefore, it takes up detergent space that would otherwise be useful to keep the TAN low.

Ca on the other hand is effective on the entire spectrum of acids.

Some Mg may be beneficial as it could help keep a TBN buffer, as it doesn't work as hard Ca; so, it's not depleted as quickly as Ca. Nevertheless, I don't like detergents packs that are too high in Mg. I prefer mostly Ca or all-Ca detergent packs for wide-spectrum acid neutralization."

For the scientific paper with empirical data and an extensive discussion, see this previous thread:

TBN, TAN, Ca, Mg, base-oil quality, oil life
 
Originally Posted By: Blue_Angel
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can call WearCheck USA and set up a personal account. Their "MOB II with TBN/TAN" UOA/VOA is very affordable, comprehensive, and accurate.

Do you have full faith in the VI reading they claim for this seemingly unbelievable oil??

It is VERY rare that an oil tests BETTER than the specs claimed by the actual manufacturer.

AFAIK, there are no manufacturer specs to go from, no PDS.

Exactly.

I even called ExxonMobil Industrial Lubricants, which manufacturers TGMO. They said, they cannot publish any PDS because then Toyota might not like what they published. They told me to contact Toyota, but of course, that would have been equally futile.

So, VOAs and UOAs are our only specs.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Yes, it's based on extensive empirical evidence. I just explained it briefly earlier in this thread:

"Mg is not harmful directly. However, it's not effective at neutralizing certain types of acids; therefore, it takes up detergent space that would otherwise be useful to keep the TAN low.

Ca on the other hand is effective on the entire spectrum of acids.

Some Mg may be beneficial as it could help keep a TBN buffer, as it doesn't work as hard Ca; so, it's not depleted as quickly as Ca. Nevertheless, I don't like detergents packs that are too high in Mg. I prefer mostly Ca or all-Ca detergent packs for wide-spectrum acid neutralization."

For the scientific paper with empirical data and an extensive discussion, see this previous thread:

TBN, TAN, Ca, Mg, base-oil quality, oil life

I see no evidence and the link comes back to this thread. What am I missing?
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can call WearCheck USA and set up a personal account. Their "MOB II with TBN/TAN" UOA/VOA is very affordable, comprehensive, and accurate.


Do you have full faith in the VI reading they claim for this seemingly unbelievable oil??

It is VERY rare that an oil tests BETTER than the specs claimed by the actual manufacturer.

There is a MSDS on Mobil made TGMO 0W-20 and IIRC the VI is quite high at 225 but we've never been able to reproduce that figure.

As far as the Wearcheck VOA is concerned it wouldn't be the first time they got a VI in the 230 range for TGMO only to recant later.
Back in 2009 we had it tested and they initial came up with a VI of 235:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1692104/1

After re-testing including sending a sample to another lab' we got a figure closer to what Toyota was claiming at the time, 214.

The VOAs of the SN oil have been in the 215-216 area to-date and one from Europe IIRC of 220. If one is interested in scientific rigor since this new value is unexpected we would need of course that the result be reproduced independently, that means another lab before one can begin to consider Wearchecks's figure correct. Since the figure is higher than what even Toyota claims I would also ask Wearcheck to re-test their KV40 and KV100 values.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If one is interested in scientific rigor since this new value is unexpected we would need of course that the result be reproduced independently, that means another lab before one can begin to consider Wearchecks's figure correct


I'd be interested in some scientific rigor on the HTHS claims...
lol.gif


the MSDS only has KV40/KV100
"36.1 cSt (36.1 mm2/sec) at 40 C | 8.5 cSt (8.5 mm2/sec) at 100C"

so the results Gokhan posted are within say 0.2cst, which is reasonable correlation...

As the VI is only a function of those two figures, either calculation is as correct as the other.

MSDS also has a pour point of -27C...which, if you trust the KV's you also have to trust...don't you ?
 
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